Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Witness Statements / Old IRA pensions -merged threads

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Witness Statements / Old IRA pensions -merged threads

    GRAPHIC EYEWITNESS accounts of the Easter Rising and the War of Independence that were “locked away” for more than half a century are available to the public online, for the first time, from today.

    After years of planning by the Defence Forces, the State’s Military Archives has digitised the entire contents of the once-secret “Bureau of Military History 1913-1921” and is allowing unlimited public access on its website.

    The personal recollections of hundreds of men and women who participated in the momentous events leading to the creation of the Irish State can be accessed free worldwide.

    The Bureau of Military History was established by Oscar Traynor, minister for defence in 1947. The purpose was to gather first-hand accounts from virtually all the surviving figures – and many minor players – in the “history of the movement for Independence”, beginning with the formation of the Irish Volunteers in 1913 until “The Truce” with the British in July 1921. The establishment of the bureau gave the individuals involved a chance to record their own stories. Over 25 years had passed since the ending of British rule; many of those involved were growing old, and the State was anxious to record their memories before it was too late.

    Witness statements were taken from, among others, members of organisations including the Irish Volunteers (subsequently the IRA), Cumann na mBan, the IRB (Irish Republican Brotherhood), Sinn Féin and the Irish Citizen Army. The project took 10 years and ended in 1957.

    But the bitter legacy of the Civil War, which had immediately followed Independence, meant that the contents of the bureau were regarded as highly sensitive and controversial in the late 1950s.

    Capt Stephen Mac Eoin of Military Archives explained that the material was then “locked away in the Department of An Taoiseach for some 45 years”, until 2001, when it was transferred to the Defence Forces to prepare it for release into the public domain.

    The scale of the project was vast. A team of military archivists has transferred the huge collection of 1,773 witness statements containing 360,000 pages of name- and word-searchable documents; rare photographs; and voice recordings onto the website. For more see http://www.militaryarchives.ie

    EYEWITNESSES: WHAT THEY SAID

    Selected quotes from witness statements to the Bureau of Military History, collected between 1947-1957, which goes online today:

    “As we got out the door into Henry Street, we lined up ‘two deep’ with the O’Rahilly standing in front and Patrick Pearse by his side . . . Our gallant attempt to break through failed and the survivors ended in an old burnt-out ruin in Moore Street. I saw O’Rahilly fall wounded and my nearest comrade, Pat O’Connor, was killed just in front of me, and falling on me pinned me under him.”

    – Easter 1916: Éamonn Dore (Irish Volunteers, Limerick who was in the GPO, Dublin)

    “After that I got so sick of the slaughter that I asked to be changed. Three refused to have their eyes bandaged … they all died like lions. The rifles of the firing party were waving like a field of corn. All the men were cut to ribbons at a range of about 10 yards.”

    – Easter 1916: Capt E Gerrard, aide-de-camp to Gen Sir Hugh Jeudwine, OC 5 Division (British army) describes the executions of the 1916 leaders

    “When the Black and Tans behaved in such an excited and unsoldierly way by endangering my daughter’s life when she was playing in St Stephen’s Green, I resolved to give all the help in my power to the resistance movement headed by Michael Collins. … I also gave him [Batt O’Connor] a latch key of my house, 15 Ely Place, and prepared that apparently impassable cul de sac so that Collins, if hard pressed, could use my garden and appear in St Stephen’s Green.”

    – The War of Independence, 1919-1921: Oliver St John Gogarty, Dublin

    “In April 1920, we decided to call an unofficial strike at the docks as a protest against the treatment meted out to the Irish political prisoners who were hunger-striking at Wormwood Scrubs. The dock labourers and the crews of the cross channel boats – BI, Cork, Limerick, Dundalk and Newry – came out to a man . . . The number employed was 5,024 and out of that number 5,016 came out on strike, completely crippling the movement of all ships in the port of Liverpool.”

    – Reaction to Irish prisoners on hunger strike in Wormwood Scrubs prison, England, 1920: Michael O’Loughlin, dockworker and member of the IRB in Liverpool

    From HERE.
    'Never look down on a person unless you're helping them up'.
    .

  • #2
    Where they secret? I always thought you could gain access to the witness statements.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Napper Tandy View Post
      Where they secret? I always thought you could gain access to the witness statements.
      no not them all , they seem to have been spilt up between military and goverment archives , I recall a few years ago I was in the military archives and the stuff I really wanted was in a dept of defence archive and I couldnt get to look at it , totally differant place , in the end I found all I was looking for in the records of st marys hospital

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Napper Tandy View Post
        Where they secret? I always thought you could gain access to the witness statements.
        I think you're right NT... the only change I can see is that they're now available online. Historians appear to have had access to them for some time, anyone familiar with T. Ryle Dwyer's works on The Squad for example will have seen that most of his primary sources seem to have come from the Witness Statements - take a quick look at Vinny Byrnes or Charlie Dalton's accounts and you'll find you're already familiar with all of it.

        Having said that, the sheer amount of material makes for compulsive reading... and if you're interested in what occurred in your local area (or what didn't) between 1916 and 1921 then the archives are a must - and will provide fascinating material for local history societies or general readers alike...
        Last edited by cogito; 11-08-2012, 03:17 AM.
        Everything is self-evident.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by cogito View Post
          I think you're right NT... the only change I can see is that they're now available online. Historians appear to have had access to them for some time, anyone familiar with T. Ryle Dwyer's works on The Squad for example will have seen that most of his primary sources seem to have come from the Witness Statements - take a quick look at Vinny Byrnes or Charlie Dalton's accounts and you'll find you're already familiar with all of it.

          Having said that, the sheer amount of material makes for compulsive reading... and if you're interested in what occurred in your local area (or what didn't) between 1916 and 1921 then the archives are a must - and will provide fascinating material for local history societies or general readers alike...
          Thanks, yes I noticed I seen some of the material online before or quoted in books.

          This apparently was a recording project at the time but was this in someway linked to a service pension?

          Comment


          • #6
            Had a quick look yesterday it was so quick i lost time and spent a hour and a half very interesting when school opens going to spend a lot of time on this site
            They are watching me

            Comment


            • #7
              'Old IRA' Pensions

              Originally posted by Napper Tandy View Post
              Thanks, yes I noticed I seen some of the material online before or quoted in books.

              This apparently was a recording project at the time but was this in someway linked to a service pension?
              I'm not sure of that Napper - any ideas yourself ? At face value the Witness Statements appear to have been a genuine attempt to document the struggle for independence while the survivors were still in a fit state to give their accounts - though the 'old IRA' pension also relied on statements authenticating the suitability of applicants. The pension thing appears to have been ongoing from the thirties through to the nineteen sixties though - I don't think they're the same documents but I'm sure I read somewhere that they too may be made available online soon...

              Might be worth doing some digging around the connection between the two archives to see if there is an overlap...
              Everything is self-evident.

              Comment


              • #8
                Witness Statements now online

                Originally posted by Napper Tandy View Post
                Thanks, yes I noticed I seen some of the material online before or quoted in books.

                This apparently was a recording project at the time but was this in someway linked to a service pension?
                I'm not sure of that Napper - any ideas yourself ? At face value the Witness Statements appear to have been a genuine attempt to document the struggle for independence while the survivors were still in a fit state to give their accounts - though the 'old IRA' pension also relied on statements authenticating the suitability of applicants. The pension thing appears to have been ongoing from the thirties through to the nineteen sixties though - I don't think they're the same documents but I'm sure I read somewhere that they too may be made available online soon...

                Might be worth doing some digging around the connection between the two archives to see if there is an overlap...
                Last edited by cogito; 19-09-2012, 02:25 AM.
                Everything is self-evident.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by cogito View Post
                  I'm not sure of that Napper - any ideas yourself ? At face value the Witness Statements appear to have been a genuine attempt to document the struggle for independence while the survivors were still in a fit state to give their accounts - though the 'old IRA' pension also relied on statements authenticating the suitability of applicants. The pension thing appears to have been ongoing from the thirties through to the nineteen sixties though - I don't think they're the same documents but I'm sure I read somewhere that they too may be made available online soon...

                  Might be worth doing some digging around the connection between the two archives to see if there is an overlap...
                  I know that the Old IRA pension led to certain embellishments in statements to ensure people qualified From the witness statements I read so far some of them gave conflicting accounts of the same operation but that may be just due to the time lapse from the event and stories growing legs with each retelling.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Napper Tandy View Post
                    I know that the Old IRA pension led to certain embellishments in statements to ensure people qualified From the witness statements I read so far some of them gave conflicting accounts of the same operation but that may be just due to the time lapse from the event and stories growing legs with each retelling.
                    There was an Army Pensions Act introduced by the Free State government in 1924 which I think covered service after 1916 - but this would probably have excluded IRA and Cumann na mBan who had taken up arms against the new state - many of whom were still in jail until 1924...

                    Fianna Fail brought in another Pensions Act in 1932 which would have included many of the Republicans excluded by the 1924 Act...

                    At some stage - I'm not sure when - IRA campaign medals were introduced - and as far as I know, these became linked to what became known as the Old IRA pension... they had to be authenticated by a brigade commander or senior officer to show the recipient had been on 'active service' for a consecutive three months between 1916 and the Truce... as you mention, there were inevitable instances of loose interpretations of what 'active service' meant and suspicions that some recipients were not wholly deserving of the honour - or pension...

                    It's an area well worth digging into... off ye go Napper... lol !

                    Interesting insight here on the issue - Seanad debate from 1956... shows that the Civil War division on pension rights had largely been overcome...

                    Last edited by cogito; 26-08-2012, 11:10 PM.
                    Everything is self-evident.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Another debate - this time from 1934 when Frank Aiken was Minister for Defence... again, gives some insight into the workings and thinking behind the pensions...

                      Everything is self-evident.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by cogito View Post
                        There was an Army Pensions Act introduced by the Free State government in 1924 which I think covered service after 1916 - but this would probably have excluded IRA and Cumann na mBan who had taken up arms against the new state - many of whom were still in jail until 1924...

                        Fianna Fail brought in another Pensions Act in 1932 which would have included many of the Republicans excluded by the 1924 Act...

                        At some stage - I'm not sure when - IRA campaign medals were introduced - and as far as I know, these became linked to what became known as the Old IRA pension... they had to be authenticated by a brigade commander or senior officer to show the recipient had been on 'active service' for a consecutive three months between 1916 and the Truce... as you mention, there were inevitable instances of loose interpretations of what 'active service' meant and suspicions that some recipients were not wholly deserving of the honour - or pension...

                        It's an area well worth digging into... off ye go Napper... lol !

                        Interesting insight here on the issue - Seanad debate from 1956... shows that the Civil War division on pension rights had largely been overcome...

                        http://historical-debates.oireachtas...612190005.html
                        Yes certainly a can of worms to be opened by a historian someday as is the extent of the involvement of Irish people on the British Government side. Everyone seems to have a patriot in the family tree, rarely an RIC or Government official. I think more Dubs claim relatives in the GPO in 1916 than Munster people claim they were at Thomond Park in 1978.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Excellent article on the origins and background to the Witness Statements by Diarmuid Ferriter at this link...

                          Everything is self-evident.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X