Berlin Wall

[Camouflage]

20 years ago the Berlin Wall and with it one of the most opressive regimes in the world finally fell. The video below was taken earlier this year in and near Wollenberg bunker, one of the East German NVA army's frontline bunkers near Berlin. The bunker, vandalized 20 years ago, has been restored to its former glory and is being maintained by a group of German military history enthusiasts. Once in a while they open the bunker to the public as part of a big Volksfest. Note the military vehicles, the uniforms and the display table at the beginning of the video - all authentic NVA gear.
But the comment (in German) als carries a strong reminder that something like that regime must never be allowed to happen again.

[Camouflage]

Apologies - here is the promised vid. (Some sort of technical hick-up in my previous message.)

[Mykidsmom]

Welcome Camouflage, I looked at the video you posted...and wondered...what is your opinion of this???

[Camouflage]

Welcome Camouflage, I looked at the video you posted...and wondered...what is your opinion of this???

I think it's great that people show an active interest in military history. I never have been in an NVA bunker myself, but I have been in Westwall, also known as Siegfried line, fortifications.Most of them sadly derelict nowadays, but some bits and pieces survived in tact, much of it still hidden underground overgrown with forest Same goes for the French Maginot line, but generally much better preserved then the German WW2 fortifications. Then of course the battle fields of the civil war in the US. It's a great feeling being in or near those historical sites .
I use some NVA equipment myself. See photo of web belt. That belt was worn by an East German soldier. Most of the other NVA gear turning up on the marked after 1990 was never in use but was stored in warehouses.
Years ago I attented a gun show somewhere in the north-west of the US I met a few guys from a local Militia at the event and they were wearing East German army jackets (summer issue). Good sturdy hard-wearing jackets I tell you, but they don't have enough pockets for my need. Nothing beats the Swiss jackets when it comes to pockets.

[Capt Patch]

Bunker

There is another "Bunker" in use today by our gallant forces of the USA (and their mates)... it's called "Gitmo" for short. Here the bullies of the world hold without trial, or even charge, up to 300 people that they have kidnapped from a variety of sovereign countries around the world. They kidnapped them, in some cases bought these human beings !, that were often in the wrong place at the wrong time or maybe they knew some of the people that the USA are so terrified of. In any case they have been kept in conditions that I would not keep my dog. Often they are interogiated until they "confess" to whatever the poor terrified soldiers from the USA tell them to confess to.

SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED TO THE SPELL CHECK !!

They also keep around another 300 "unaurthrised" combattians who may or may not have taken action against the invaders of their country. These could be called freeom fighters by their countrymen and allies who also use the word "Terrisorm" when they refer to the forces of the USA who indiscrimitaly massacare men women and children who are callously not even counted by the invaders and are no more than "Collerateral Damage" when one of their attacks goes wrong or they have attecked without correct information.... what an insult !

You seem to be facinated by things military ? why don't you do something useful and go to Iraq or Afganistan or any one of the other 44 countries that have been invaded / occupied by the forces of the good old US of A since 1946 and see if you could perhaps aid these citizens to cope with the invader ? Mind you they might not like your God but surely a true believer such as yerself wouldn't be put of by a little thing like that ?

You could keep us all informed here as to your progress as I'd love to hear some real truth from a personal point of view. Who knows you may even get some super souvineers (?) that you could show us.

[Camouflage]

There is another "Bunker" in use today by our gallant forces of the USA (and their mates)... it's called "Gitmo" for short. Here the bullies of the world hold without trial, or even charge, up to 300 people that they have kidnapped from a variety of sovereign countries around the world. They kidnapped them, in some cases bought these human beings !, that were often in the wrong place at the wrong time or maybe they knew some of the people that the USA are so terrified of. In any case they have been kept in conditions that I would not keep my dog. Often they are interogiated until they "confess" to whatever the poor terrified soldiers from the USA tell them to confess to.

SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED TO THE SPELL CHECK !!

They also keep around another 300 "unaurthrised" combattians who may or may not have taken action against the invaders of their country. These could be called freeom fighters by their countrymen and allies who also use the word "Terrisorm" when they refer to the forces of the USA who indiscrimitaly massacare men women and children who are callously not even counted by the invaders and are no more than "Collerateral Damage" when one of their attacks goes wrong or they have attecked without correct information.... what an insult !

You seem to be facinated by things military ? why don't you do something useful and go to Iraq or Afganistan or any one of the other 44 countries that have been invaded / occupied by the forces of the good old US of A since 1946 and see if you could perhaps aid these citizens to cope with the invader ? Mind you they might not like your God but surely a true believer such as yerself wouldn't be put of by a little thing like that ?

You could keep us all informed here as to your progress as I'd love to hear some real truth from a personal point of view. Who knows you may even get some super souvineers (?) that you could show us.

I started this thread for a discussion focusing on military history of East Germany, WW 1 & 2, civil war and other conflicts of the past and not as a political discussion. I normally would reply to awkward political topics, but since your intent is not an open and fair debate, but slinging mud and insults at me personally, my faith and [B]both[B] of my countries I love so dearly and their respective defence forces, I have decided not to reply to this message.

All the best,

God bless America & Germany and our armed forces.

[Mykidsmom]

Well i dont speak German, nor understand it so the video provided me zippo in the way of information. I think the world thro ww2 didnt really learn anything because as Captn says....look at gitmo....a total disgrace to our times...and a huge blot on how the world perceives the USA...and while i agree aspects of history should be preserved i do not think preserving a time when a nation was annihilating others as the world stood by is anything to be proud of...albeit they pay lip service and say "this should never happen again."

sick would be my take on it.!

[Camouflage]

i do not think preserving a time when a nation was annihilating others as the world stood by is anything to be proud of...albeit they pay lip service and say "this should never happen again."

sick would be my take on it.!

Alright, then you would favor destroying the pyramids in Egypt, or any structures left from the Roman and Greek empires, because all these cultures were involved in the annihilation of other nations. In other words, we have to close all our museums and start trashing all our archaeological heritage on public display, because just about any nation at some time in history stepped on the toes of a neighboring culture.

P.S. I am not shunning away from a fair debate about Gitmo, but I prefer doing so in the 'International Politics' thread.

[Mykidsmom]

well i honestly from my own point of view..cannot compare anywhere in my eithics the pyramids to the attempt at annihilation of the Jewish people in the 30/40s while the supposed first world nations looked on..To my mind the US closed its eyes until the financial wizards of wall street started rattling the cage...much the same way they did recently in the west bank.....a lot of lives could have been saved in MY OPINION if the US has stepped in....ww2 is too recent and too raw to my mind to be preserving historical sites that were used against people...it stinks to me.

[Camouflage]

well i honestly from my own point of view..cannot compare anywhere in my eithics the pyramids to the attempt at annihilation of the Jewish people in the 30/40s while the supposed first world nations looked on..To my mind the US closed its eyes until the financial wizards of wall street started rattling the cage...much the same way they did recently in the west bank.....a lot of lives could have been saved in MY OPINION if the US has stepped in....ww2 is too recent and too raw to my mind to be preserving historical sites that were used against people...it stinks to me.

Used for good or bad, it still is part of history. East German Communism was bad. But the old DDR government was not involved in the annihilation of Jews. Should America stayed out of WW2 or gotten involved at a much earlier stage? A good question, and a hard one to answer especially for a man like me with strong roots in both countries. But somehow I think it would have been best if the US would have stayed out of this conflict completely. It's not our job to police the entire world. I accept, Hitler's genocide agenda against the Jews (many of them highly decorated German WW1 veterans ) was utterly wrong, but Sadam Hussein did more or less to the Kurds in the North of Iraq . We condemn Bush for invading Iraq, but applaud Roosevelt for doing the same in Germany? How can such a double standad be justified?

And it was the Jews who were forced to build the Egyptian pyramids. Thousands of Jewish slave laborers died in Egypt. Anniliation of a whole nation? I would definitely say so. History is neither good nor bad, it just is.

[Mykidsmom]

Used for good or bad, it still is part of history. East German Communism was bad. But the old DDR government was not involved in the annihilation of Jews. Should America stayed out of WW2 or gotten involved at a much earlier stage? A good question, and a hard one to answer especially for a man like me with strong roots in both countries. But somehow I think it would have been best if the US would have stayed out of this conflict completely. It's not our job to police the entire world. I accept, Hitler's genocide agenda against the Jews (many of them highly decorated German WW1 veterans ) was utterly wrong, but Sadam Hussein did more or less to the Kurds in the North of Iraq . We condemn Bush for invading Iraq, but applaud Roosevelt for doing the same in Germany? How can such a double standad be justified?

And it was the Jews who were forced to build the Egyptian pyramids. Thousands of Jewish slave laborers died in Egypt. Anniliation of a whole nation? I would definitely say so. History is neither good nor bad, it just is.

No i agree its not the us's job to police the world...but i do think ethics comes into it..and during ww2 they played possum for many reasons....i personally dont condemn bush for invading iraq...but what i do condemn him for is prolonging the war...causing undue stress and condoning the murder of saddam ...because no way did that man get a fair trial and his ending was appalling to say the least......and dont get the idea that im a saddam supporter..im not....but i think it reflects on all of us when something like that happens in the world and we all sit back watch and move on..my personal opinion is bush and his cronies should be tried for war crimes

[Camouflage]

No i agree its not the us's job to police the world...but i do think ethics comes into it..and during ww2 they played possum for many reasons....i personally dont condemn bush for invading iraq...but what i do condemn him for is prolonging the war...causing undue stress and condoning the murder of saddam ...because no way did that man get a fair trial and his ending was appalling to say the least......and dont get the idea that im a saddam supporter..im not....but i think it reflects on all of us when something like that happens in the world and we all sit back watch and move on..my personal opinion is bush and his cronies should be tried for war crimes

You see, nobody really knows why we are over there. It started exactly 8 years ago after 9/11. I don't buy the official version about these events. I have no doubt that bin Laden was involved. But he had support from within the US government. I would even go so far and say Bush knew anything about it, but that government got so big over the last few decades and nobody knows anymore what the guys from the department next door are up to. Anyway, we went in to Afghanistan to get this one man and his gang. Bush made it quite clear that we will not engage the Taliban regime and only stay in there till bin Laden is captured.But suddenly plans changed, nobody even bothered mentioning bin Laden and thrashing the Taliban became flavor of the day in DC. Then we went into Iraq. I personally believe Saddam had those weapons , but got rid of them in time. These weapons no doubt posed a threat to other countries in the region, but definitely not to the US. Therefore we should have stayed out of it. Bush went and Obama came. But instead of pulling the troops at least out of Afghanistan, he escalated the war and even dragged Pakistan, a formerly US friendly nation, into that mess. Bush lied and his policy added to the missery of all parties involved, but Obama continues following in his footsteps, making even worse mistakes than Bush. Do I want Bush or even Obama tried for war crimes? No, definitely not. But I definitely want some answers from the government about 9/11. I am just glad Bush is gone and I hope and pray Obama will be out in 2012 as well. I have no love for either of these two man, and not just because of these wars. There are other issues involved as well. American politicians, Democrats and most Republicans alike do no longer represent American interests, but are pawns in the sinister games of the New World Order clique.

About Saddam . He fully deserved what he got. But it should have been the Iraqi people dishing out justice, not the US hiding behind and manipulating a Iraqi court.

[Rashers]

Do I want Bush or even Obama tried for war crimes?

Most definitely Bush should be brought to justice charged with crimes against humanity, war crimes, kidnapping, torture, making war against sovereign states, several breaches of the Geneva Convention etc etc etc.

If found guilty he should pay the ultimate price.

[Camouflage]

Most definitely Bush should be brought to justice charged with crimes against humanity, war crimes, kidnapping, torture, making war against sovereign states, several breaches of the Geneva Convention etc etc etc.

If found guilty he should pay the ultimate price.

In this case each and every head of state / government should be put on trial, including your own Cowen and Aherne. After all they are allowing our planes through your air space and some even land at Shannon.

Bush made a lot of mistakes and I never supported him. Rarely did I see eye to eye with him. But I always will regard him as a Southern gentleman.

[Rashers]

In this case each and every head of state / government should be put on trial, including your own Cowen and Aherne. After all they are allowing our planes through your air space and some even land at Shannon.

Bush made a lot of mistakes and I never supported him. Rarely did I see eye to eye with him. But I always will regard him as a Southern gentleman.

Bush is a mass murderer at best, plain and simple... and that's without even getting into the Guantanamo Bay torture camp.