Originally posted by KatieMorag
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Ireland: From 1916 to the War of Independence
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We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!
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Originally posted by KatieMorag View PostThat's what I meant when I said the ones who didn't like the IRB would have played down their importance and influence.......
this is a case in point regarding the witness statements......if you go to the site, click on witness ,go to ' r' in the alphabet and scrool down to robinson, seamus, and his 'history' will come up . ...[he might be telling porkys though' ]. ....sorry if I`m a newsance !!!.....also you can just look at the area a man was from , so Dublin brigades etc would be your main interest .in god i trust...everyone else cash only.
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Originally posted by KatieMorag View PostThat's what I meant when I said the ones who didn't like the IRB would have played down their importance and influence.......We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!
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Originally posted by cosmo View PostKatie,
this is a case in point regarding the witness statements......if you go to the site, click on witness ,go to ' r' in the alphabet and scrool down to robinson, seamus, and his 'history' will come up . ...[he might be telling porkys though' ]. ....sorry if I`m a newsance !!!.....also you can just look at the area a man was from , so Dublin brigades etc would be your main interest .
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Following the death of Redmond and the dropping of the Midleton plan, relations between the various parties continued to deteriorate. The Ulster Unionists were now asking for exclusion for all nine Ulster Counties, and no agreement had been reached on the subject of Customs and Excise. The Irish Party, however, did have some cause for celebration, with two electoral victories over Sinn Fein. On 22nd March, Redmond's son William took his father's seat in Waterford City, and the Irish Party won the Tyrone East by-election on 3rd April. The Convention reported in early April that the Nationalists and Southern Unionists had reached an agreement on an all-Ireland Parliament. Although this wasn't the "substantial agreement" that Lloyd George had stipulated in order for legislation to be enacted, the war in Europe now intervened. Following heavy losses sustained during the German Spring Offensive in March and April, Lloyd George decided on a dual course of action in Ireland. Home Rule was to be implemented, with an all-Ireland Parliament and safeguards for the Unionists, and Conscription introduced for Ireland.Last edited by KatieMorag; 28-01-2018, 04:24 PM.
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Originally posted by cosmo View PostKatie,
this is a case in point regarding the witness statements......if you go to the site, click on witness ,go to ' r' in the alphabet and scrool down to robinson, seamus, and his 'history' will come up . ...[he might be telling porkys though' ]. ....sorry if I`m a newsance !!!.....also you can just look at the area a man was from , so Dublin brigades etc would be your main interest .
In fairness to Robinson, Breen *did* only make a few references to him in his book and most of them were unflattering, making it seem like he was a complete rube who was only picked as O/C of the Southern Tipperary Brigade as a figurehead.
In reality, Robinson did seem to have been a reasonable hands-on leader, at least during the War of Independence, even if his advice was not always heeded.
By the time of the Civil War, however, his command really was an empty one, with the likes of Breen and Dinny Lacy acting on their own initiative, though that could say as much about the collapse of any central command in Tipperary then.
Some more detail on Robinson's vendetta against Breen:
A Bitter Brotherhood: The War of Words of Séumas Robinson
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Originally posted by KatieMorag View PostAlso I guess the Volunteers that were distrustful of the IRB and maybe felt Collins etc. were getting too big for their boots probably wanted to play down how much influence it had, hence comments like the "moribund" one........
With West Cork, in contrast, all the leading players like Liam Lynch, Deasy, Florence O'Donoghue, Tom Barry and the Hales brothers remained or joined the Brotherhood.
Lynch went so far as to contemplate during the Civil War ways in which he could reform the IRB on anti-Treaty lines. Which turned out to be completely pointless as his side lost anyway but it shows the fraternity was taken seriously by important leaders like him.
‘This Splendid Historic Organisation’: The Irish Republican Brotherhood among the Anti-Treatyites, 1921-4
With other people, just because they were officially inductees doesn't mean they took it seriously. Tom Maguire was entering a hotel during the question over the Treaty when he saw his IRB superior and promptly cold-shouldered him as he hadn't been attending IRB meetings anyway.
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Originally posted by KatieMorag View PostThanks EA.......I'm just finding it a bit confusing at the moment. I guess it'll become bit clearer as I go along.
If you had asked in 1919-1922 if the IRB was still relevant, you'd get a different answer from each person. That's what it seems to me.
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Originally posted by Éireann_Ascendant View PostSéumas Robinson's witness statement is pretty bizarre - by the time he was writing it, the 1950s, he seems to have been obsessed with the idea that Dan Breen was taking all his credit, supposedly enabled in this 'Great Tipperary hoax' by Breen's fellow Tipperarians who preferred the credit go to their one of their own.
In fairness to Robinson, Breen *did* only make a few references to him in his book and most of them were unflattering, making it seem like he was a complete rube who was only picked as O/C of the Southern Tipperary Brigade as a figurehead.
In reality, Robinson did seem to have been a reasonable hands-on leader, at least during the War of Independence, even if his advice was not always heeded.
By the time of the Civil War, however, his command really was an empty one, with the likes of Breen and Dinny Lacy acting on their own initiative, though that could say as much about the collapse of any central command in Tipperary then.
Some more detail on Robinson's vendetta against Breen:
Séumas Robinson had been a man of success in many a field. And yet he was to be constantly tormented, enraged and provoked into writing streams of vehement counter-attacks by the burning conviction that his colleague and brother-in-arms, Dan Breen, the arch-hoaxer, had, with the connivance of the cold-hearted and ungrateful people of Tipperary, fucked him over.We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!
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Originally posted by Éireann_Ascendant View PostIt depends on which area - in Tipperary, Dan Breen, Séumas Robinson and Éamon O'Dwyer (an important organiser for the area) all separately decided that the IRB wasn't worth having anymore and ditched it.
With West Cork, in contrast, all the leading players like Liam Lynch, Deasy, Florence O'Donoghue, Tom Barry and the Hales brothers remained or joined the Brotherhood.
Lynch went so far as to contemplate during the Civil War ways in which he could reform the IRB on anti-Treaty lines. Which turned out to be completely pointless as his side lost anyway but it shows the fraternity was taken seriously by important leaders like him.
With other people, just because they were officially inductees doesn't mean they took it seriously. Tom Maguire was entering a hotel during the question over the Treaty when he saw his IRB superior and promptly cold-shouldered him as he hadn't been attending IRB meetings anyway.We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!
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Originally posted by DAMNTHEWEATHER View PostWell he was....a complete rube only pickerd as a figurehead as I said earlier... Breen was pulling all the strings....mainly because poor Seamus....as much as he was willing was far too inexperienced.
Seán Treacy - who most others would have chosen as O/C - vouched for him, and I doubt Treacy would have entrusted such a position to an idiot. Ernie O'Malley likewise worked extensively with SR during his time in Tipperary and seemed to respect him well enough.
But what or where did he lead....one memorable example will do EA.
SR was also helped lead the 1920 attacks on the Hollyford and Drangan RIC Barracks, with him climbing up the ladders to the roof of Hollyford, alongside Ernie O'Malley, to set the roof on fire.
By the end, SR's "hair was crimped into short spirals, his face and hands were blackened and blotched with blisters, and small spots of light like burning furze smouldered through his hair. His clothes were a flight of fireflies."
His command was empty from the get go.......What other Brigade was in a state of collapse thiough....and details ?
"Throughout the [civil] war Republican military leaders in South Tipperary continued to act as individuals. It appears that Dinny Lacey...still refused to take orders from Séumas Robinson...Meanwhile other battalion and column leaders in Lacey's brigade area...took their orders directly from the division, not from Lacey...Fitzpatrick concluded: "No one knew who was in charge."
Not to say there was not a lot to criticise - SR's weak leadership had been noted even before, with Thomas Ryan describing how his command over the Tipperary flying columns became largely nominal during the War of Independence.
Later, as a hard-liner during the lead-up to the civil war he had helped make a bad situation worse and the conflict inevitable, such as being among those who walked out of the IRA convention of June 1922 and proceeded to lock the rest out of the Four Courts.
But he certainly wasn't the brainless moron found in Breen's accounts.
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Originally posted by DAMNTHEWEATHER View PostNot strictly true in the case of Dan Breen.... but I'd like to know more about why the 'others' any of the others didn't think the IRB 'wasn't worth having anymore'.... it's not quite how I read it.
O'Dwyer described in his BMH statement the talks he had had about the IRB and the attitude of others towards it:
"It was generally our opinion that the need for the I.R.B. had practically ceased to exist, owing to the fact that the Irish Volunteers were now doing the I.R.B. work, that when an Irish Parliament was set up the Volunteers would come under its control. They, the Volunteers, would then be titled the army of Ireland and the continuation of the I.R.B. would not, therefore, be necessary."
When the IRB Supreme Council sent a man to Tipperary to see what was going on, he was imprisoned by the local Volunteers who assumed the stranger as a spy and was only released when O'Dwyer vouched for him. O'Dwyer remained on good terms with the IRB president, Michael Collins, so it doesn't seem like the IRB did - or could - do anything about former members thumbing their noses at it.
Robinson went so far to as describe the IRB as 'moribund' which, while inaccurate in regards to the country as a whole, seems to have applied well enough in South Tipperary.
With West Cork, in contrast, all the leading players like Liam Lynch, Deasy, Florence O'Donoghue, Tom Barry and the Hales brothers remained or joined the Brotherhood.
Can you give me a reference to this info please ?
More detail here:
‘This Splendid Historic Organisation’: The Irish Republican Brotherhood among the Anti-Treatyites, 1921-4
Who was Maguire's IRB superior..the one he cold shouldered . ....if ye know please ???? Link / reference anything will do.
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