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Ireland: From 1916 to the War of Independence

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  • Originally posted by KatieMorag View Post
    That's what I meant when I said the ones who didn't like the IRB would have played down their importance and influence.......
    Yep....moreso those who wouldn't even get anywhere near an IRB interview.....he was a bit of a gobshite....whereas his townies Breen and Treacy were the ones who cut the mustard in the clever, ruthless and fearless stakes.....Seamus was a bit of a hanger on small fry merchant...in the eyes of those who ran with him......and to all intents and purposes it was Dan Breen who pulled his strings during his leadership of the 3rd Tipp Brigade.
    We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by KatieMorag View Post
      That's what I meant when I said the ones who didn't like the IRB would have played down their importance and influence.......
      Katie,

      this is a case in point regarding the witness statements......if you go to the site, click on witness ,go to ' r' in the alphabet and scrool down to robinson, seamus, and his 'history' will come up . ...[he might be telling porkys though' ]. ....sorry if I`m a newsance !!!.....also you can just look at the area a man was from , so Dublin brigades etc would be your main interest .
      in god i trust...everyone else cash only.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by KatieMorag View Post
        That's what I meant when I said the ones who didn't like the IRB would have played down their importance and influence.......
        Agree...but more the ones who were kept in the dark and hadn't a clue....apart from Dev an Burgess that is....but then again they were glory hunters in their own was....a raft of different motives imo.
        We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by cosmo View Post
          Katie,

          this is a case in point regarding the witness statements......if you go to the site, click on witness ,go to ' r' in the alphabet and scrool down to robinson, seamus, and his 'history' will come up . ...[he might be telling porkys though' ]. ....sorry if I`m a newsance !!!.....also you can just look at the area a man was from , so Dublin brigades etc would be your main interest .
          Of course you're not a nuisance Cosmo!

          Comment


          • Following the death of Redmond and the dropping of the Midleton plan, relations between the various parties continued to deteriorate. The Ulster Unionists were now asking for exclusion for all nine Ulster Counties, and no agreement had been reached on the subject of Customs and Excise. The Irish Party, however, did have some cause for celebration, with two electoral victories over Sinn Fein. On 22nd March, Redmond's son William took his father's seat in Waterford City, and the Irish Party won the Tyrone East by-election on 3rd April. The Convention reported in early April that the Nationalists and Southern Unionists had reached an agreement on an all-Ireland Parliament. Although this wasn't the "substantial agreement" that Lloyd George had stipulated in order for legislation to be enacted, the war in Europe now intervened. Following heavy losses sustained during the German Spring Offensive in March and April, Lloyd George decided on a dual course of action in Ireland. Home Rule was to be implemented, with an all-Ireland Parliament and safeguards for the Unionists, and Conscription introduced for Ireland.
            Last edited by KatieMorag; 28-01-2018, 04:24 PM.

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            • Originally posted by cosmo View Post
              Katie,

              this is a case in point regarding the witness statements......if you go to the site, click on witness ,go to ' r' in the alphabet and scrool down to robinson, seamus, and his 'history' will come up . ...[he might be telling porkys though' ]. ....sorry if I`m a newsance !!!.....also you can just look at the area a man was from , so Dublin brigades etc would be your main interest .
              Séumas Robinson's witness statement is pretty bizarre - by the time he was writing it, the 1950s, he seems to have been obsessed with the idea that Dan Breen was taking all his credit, supposedly enabled in this 'Great Tipperary hoax' by Breen's fellow Tipperarians who preferred the credit go to their one of their own.

              In fairness to Robinson, Breen *did* only make a few references to him in his book and most of them were unflattering, making it seem like he was a complete rube who was only picked as O/C of the Southern Tipperary Brigade as a figurehead.

              In reality, Robinson did seem to have been a reasonable hands-on leader, at least during the War of Independence, even if his advice was not always heeded.

              By the time of the Civil War, however, his command really was an empty one, with the likes of Breen and Dinny Lacy acting on their own initiative, though that could say as much about the collapse of any central command in Tipperary then.

              Some more detail on Robinson's vendetta against Breen:

              A Bitter Brotherhood: The War of Words of Séumas Robinson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by KatieMorag View Post
                Also I guess the Volunteers that were distrustful of the IRB and maybe felt Collins etc. were getting too big for their boots probably wanted to play down how much influence it had, hence comments like the "moribund" one........
                It depends on which area - in Tipperary, Dan Breen, Séumas Robinson and Éamon O'Dwyer (an important organiser for the area) all separately decided that the IRB wasn't worth having anymore and ditched it.

                With West Cork, in contrast, all the leading players like Liam Lynch, Deasy, Florence O'Donoghue, Tom Barry and the Hales brothers remained or joined the Brotherhood.

                Lynch went so far as to contemplate during the Civil War ways in which he could reform the IRB on anti-Treaty lines. Which turned out to be completely pointless as his side lost anyway but it shows the fraternity was taken seriously by important leaders like him.

                ‘This Splendid Historic Organisation’: The Irish Republican Brotherhood among the Anti-Treatyites, 1921-4

                With other people, just because they were officially inductees doesn't mean they took it seriously. Tom Maguire was entering a hotel during the question over the Treaty when he saw his IRB superior and promptly cold-shouldered him as he hadn't been attending IRB meetings anyway.

                Comment


                • Thanks EA.......I'm just finding it a bit confusing at the moment. I guess it'll become bit clearer as I go along.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by KatieMorag View Post
                    Thanks EA.......I'm just finding it a bit confusing at the moment. I guess it'll become bit clearer as I go along.
                    It's pretty confusing in general.

                    If you had asked in 1919-1922 if the IRB was still relevant, you'd get a different answer from each person. That's what it seems to me.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Éireann_Ascendant View Post
                      It's pretty confusing in general.

                      If you had asked in 1919-1922 if the IRB was still relevant, you'd get a different answer from each person. That's what it seems to me.
                      It's not just me then!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Éireann_Ascendant View Post
                        Séumas Robinson's witness statement is pretty bizarre - by the time he was writing it, the 1950s, he seems to have been obsessed with the idea that Dan Breen was taking all his credit, supposedly enabled in this 'Great Tipperary hoax' by Breen's fellow Tipperarians who preferred the credit go to their one of their own.
                        Sure twas all in Seamus's or Seumas' (as the case may be) mind....Of copurse DB was taking all the glory....and why wouldn't he....he did more sleeves rolled up time than most including Mick when it comes to it....but I did say sleeves rolled up time.

                        In fairness to Robinson, Breen *did* only make a few references to him in his book and most of them were unflattering, making it seem like he was a complete rube who was only picked as O/C of the Southern Tipperary Brigade as a figurehead.
                        Well he was....a complete rube only pickerd as a figurehead as I said earlier... Breen was pulling all the strings....mainly because poor Seamus....as much as he was willing was far too inexperienced.

                        In reality, Robinson did seem to have been a reasonable hands-on leader, at least during the War of Independence, even if his advice was not always heeded.
                        But what or where did he lead....one memorable example will do EA.

                        By the time of the Civil War, however, his command really was an empty one, with the likes of Breen and Dinny Lacy acting on their own initiative, though that could say as much about the collapse of any central command in Tipperary then.
                        His command was empty from the get go.......What other Brigade was in a state of collapse thiough....and details ?

                        Some more detail on Robinson's vendetta against Breen:
                        Patriot, guerrilla leader, elected representative, war hero, a historian for all his protests, and finally a statesman –

                        Séumas Robinson had been a man of success in many a field. And yet he was to be constantly tormented, enraged and provoked into writing streams of vehement counter-attacks by the burning conviction that his colleague and brother-in-arms, Dan Breen, the arch-hoaxer, had, with the connivance of the cold-hearted and ungrateful people of Tipperary, fucked him over.
                        Arch hoaxer ???? my arse... Seamus Robinson simply to fuked himself over from day.... one bless his heart.
                        We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Éireann_Ascendant View Post
                          It depends on which area - in Tipperary, Dan Breen, Séumas Robinson and Éamon O'Dwyer (an important organiser for the area) all separately decided that the IRB wasn't worth having anymore and ditched it.
                          Not strictly true in the case of Dan Breen.... but I'd like to know more about why the 'others' any of the others didn't think the IRB 'wasn't worth having anymore'.... it's not quite how I read it.

                          With West Cork, in contrast, all the leading players like Liam Lynch, Deasy, Florence O'Donoghue, Tom Barry and the Hales brothers remained or joined the Brotherhood.

                          Lynch went so far as to contemplate during the Civil War ways in which he could reform the IRB on anti-Treaty lines. Which turned out to be completely pointless as his side lost anyway but it shows the fraternity was taken seriously by important leaders like him.
                          Can you give me a reference to this info please ?

                          With other people, just because they were officially inductees doesn't mean they took it seriously. Tom Maguire was entering a hotel during the question over the Treaty when he saw his IRB superior and promptly cold-shouldered him as he hadn't been attending IRB meetings anyway.
                          Who was Maguire's IRB superior..the one he cold shouldered . ....if ye know please ???? Link / reference anything will do.
                          We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DAMNTHEWEATHER View Post
                            Well he was....a complete rube only pickerd as a figurehead as I said earlier... Breen was pulling all the strings....mainly because poor Seamus....as much as he was willing was far too inexperienced.
                            Well, according to Breen at least. Others seemed to respect him. Eamon O'Dwyer, a leading organiser in the area, brought him over to Tipperary after meeting him in jail so he could lend a hand.

                            Seán Treacy - who most others would have chosen as O/C - vouched for him, and I doubt Treacy would have entrusted such a position to an idiot. Ernie O'Malley likewise worked extensively with SR during his time in Tipperary and seemed to respect him well enough.


                            But what or where did he lead....one memorable example will do EA.
                            The Soloheadbeg ambush - Breen's BMH account has him 300 yards away at the time, but another BMH statement (Patrick H. O'Dwyer's) has SR grabbing at the reins of the cart-horse, with the nearest RIC man readying his gun to aim at either SR or O'Dwyer (before being shot himself). SR was as much in danger as anyone else there.

                            SR was also helped lead the 1920 attacks on the Hollyford and Drangan RIC Barracks, with him climbing up the ladders to the roof of Hollyford, alongside Ernie O'Malley, to set the roof on fire.

                            By the end, SR's "hair was crimped into short spirals, his face and hands were blackened and blotched with blisters, and small spots of light like burning furze smouldered through his hair. His clothes were a flight of fireflies."


                            His command was empty from the get go.......What other Brigade was in a state of collapse thiough....and details ?
                            I'm basing that statement on Michael Hopkinson's 'Green Against Green':

                            "Throughout the [civil] war Republican military leaders in South Tipperary continued to act as individuals. It appears that Dinny Lacey...still refused to take orders from Séumas Robinson...Meanwhile other battalion and column leaders in Lacey's brigade area...took their orders directly from the division, not from Lacey...Fitzpatrick concluded: "No one knew who was in charge."

                            Not to say there was not a lot to criticise - SR's weak leadership had been noted even before, with Thomas Ryan describing how his command over the Tipperary flying columns became largely nominal during the War of Independence.

                            Later, as a hard-liner during the lead-up to the civil war he had helped make a bad situation worse and the conflict inevitable, such as being among those who walked out of the IRA convention of June 1922 and proceeded to lock the rest out of the Four Courts.

                            But he certainly wasn't the brainless moron found in Breen's accounts.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DAMNTHEWEATHER View Post
                              Not strictly true in the case of Dan Breen.... but I'd like to know more about why the 'others' any of the others didn't think the IRB 'wasn't worth having anymore'.... it's not quite how I read it.
                              As I remember from Breen's book, he was so disgusted with his IRB compatriots for continuously stalling on action that he quit them. I don't know if he officially left the group but for practical purposes he did.

                              O'Dwyer described in his BMH statement the talks he had had about the IRB and the attitude of others towards it:

                              "It was generally our opinion that the need for the I.R.B. had practically ceased to exist, owing to the fact that the Irish Volunteers were now doing the I.R.B. work, that when an Irish Parliament was set up the Volunteers would come under its control. They, the Volunteers, would then be titled the army of Ireland and the continuation of the I.R.B. would not, therefore, be necessary."

                              When the IRB Supreme Council sent a man to Tipperary to see what was going on, he was imprisoned by the local Volunteers who assumed the stranger as a spy and was only released when O'Dwyer vouched for him. O'Dwyer remained on good terms with the IRB president, Michael Collins, so it doesn't seem like the IRB did - or could - do anything about former members thumbing their noses at it.

                              Robinson went so far to as describe the IRB as 'moribund' which, while inaccurate in regards to the country as a whole, seems to have applied well enough in South Tipperary.

                              With West Cork, in contrast, all the leading players like Liam Lynch, Deasy, Florence O'Donoghue, Tom Barry and the Hales brothers remained or joined the Brotherhood.
                              Both Deasy and O'Donoghue described the IRB involvement in their areas at length, to the point that IRB and IRA meetings were indistinguishable.

                              Can you give me a reference to this info please ?
                              Lynch's correspondence with O'Donoghue and Seán O'Hegarty, stored in the NLI, gives quite a bit of insight into such ideas of his at the time, such as reopening an adjourned meeting of the IRB Supreme Council and using the numbers - which he presumed would be in his favour - to throw out those who had voted for the Treaty, and replace them with more like-minded members.

                              More detail here:

                              ‘This Splendid Historic Organisation’: The Irish Republican Brotherhood among the Anti-Treatyites, 1921-4

                              Who was Maguire's IRB superior..the one he cold shouldered . ....if ye know please ???? Link / reference anything will do.
                              I don't think Maguire even gave the other man's name - his account can be found in 'The Men will Talk to Me: Mayo Interviews'.

                              Comment


                              • A very smart blog EA, a lot of work....well done.
                                Liam Lynch By November 1922, five months into the Irish Civil War, Liam Lynch was a busy man as Chief of Staff to the Anti-Treatyite IRA. Not too busy, however, to turn his thoughts towards an issu…
                                We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

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