Michael Collins

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

It would make no sense for Collins to go out as he was the boss and what boss does the grafting work?Too valuable to lose so you don't risk it and that's just common sense.As regards the g.p.o.who says he didn't fire his weapon ? I assume he had one?

It was common knowledge at the time.....he was a Capt, a Staff Officer, ADC to Joe Plunkett in the GPO.....Weapon ?.... It is documented that he had two revolvers with him at the Keating Branch IRB in the Keating Rooms North Frederick Street the night before the Rising.......

On the day, Collins was appointed to the government body-guard and spent some of his time covering James Connolly's back.......Collins did not fire any weapons from the GPO.....not least, on account of a hand injury sustained while bomb making at Plunkett's House, 'Larkfield' at Kimmage, along with Tom Dillon and Rory O'Connor in the preceding week.

Pix; Capt Michael Collins...Vinny Byrne's gun on the right Michael Collins' on the left.

[Seeker]

The vast majority of the IRA during the Tan War never fired a shot at anyone - never mind hit their target.

Leaving aside the obvious statement that he was 'Ireland's most Wanted' by the authorities and effective CIC of the IRA during the period who had no business being out on the ground taking potshots at the enemy, there are enough documented instances of him getting directly involved in operations to show he was not one to hand over the dirty work to subordinates.

Off the top of the head - some operations he was directly involved in...

His overnight 'raid' on the G Division's HQ in Pearse Street when he obtained their intelligence files.

The springing of De Valera from Lincoln Gaol with Harry Boland. Presume they were armed...

The attempted springing of Sean MacKeoin from Mountjoy when he was under sentence of death - the Squad spent two days in close surveillance of the British armoured car and it's crew that was used in the raid on Mountjoy - they operated in shifts - two Squad members discovered to their horror that the person they were relieving from watch duty was Mick Collins.

More indignation and alarm from Squad members when they encountered Collins out on one of the search parties in the streets hunting down some dangerous target (Igoe?)... T Ryle Dwyer has more on that incident and others similar.

Any of those incidents could have resulted in a shootout with Crown Forces - as would any attempt by the same forces to apprehend him. He lived with that threat day and night for over two years without a break.

Bravo!
There is abundant testimony from eye-witnesses & comrades throughout the War of Independence of Michael Collins in action, taking the bullets and giving them. It's not hard to find. Keep it coming. I'd like to add Dan Breen in his auto-bio mentions Collins was one of their ambush party when they went gunning for Lord French.

It's shocking how some otherwise apparently knowledgable, otherwise seeming "fans" can continue to try to palm off this rubbish claim that somehow Collins got through the whole war, including the GPO "without firing a shot."

***

On related topics, it's not unusual or necessarily terrible that proletarian revolutions often have middle class/ bourgeois intellectuals in their leadership. Every successful revolution has included people of all classes. And the people doing the intellectual work tend to be the educated ones, who tend not to be from the lowest classes.

I agree the best way to understand Pearse is his own writing; especially his poetry. Not to mention the Proclamation. A document that's stood the test of time. It has rung true for a nation, for generations. No mean feat. It takes poetry to do that. And nobody can do everything. He was certainly a dreamer and a romantic.

They didn't have an army, they didn't have recruiting stations, or military academies where they could go. All that was taken away from this nation when the wild geese were deported in 1688 following the fall of Limerick. Having our own army is a basic right of national sovereignty that had been taken from us. Not having all that was not merely a quixotic oversight.

The men & women of '16 did the best they could. It was a case of, "For God's sake, let's do something, even if it's wrong." They were right to. Who knows when we'd have had independence without them. Not by 1922, that's for sure. If what a great revolutionary does is "recognize and sieze the time," they did it.

In reality, it was the rebels of 1916 who started the war that was won 1919-1921. As Yeats put it in a letter (I believe quoting a farmer) "The young men are desperately jealous of the old ones for dying."

[quinner]

Bravo!
There is abundant testimony from eye-witnesses & comrades throughout the War of Independence of Michael Collins in action, taking the bullets and giving them. It's not hard to find. Keep it coming. I'd like to add Dan Breen in his auto-bio mentions Collins was one of their ambush party when they went gunning for Lord French.

It's shocking how some otherwise apparently knowledgable, otherwise seeming "fans" can continue to try to palm off this rubbish claim that somehow Collins got through the whole war, including the GPO "without firing a shot."

***

On related topics, it's not unusual or necessarily terrible that proletarian revolutions often have middle class/ bourgeois intellectuals in their leadership. Every successful revolution has included people of all classes. And the people doing the intellectual work tend to be the educated ones, who tend not to be from the lowest classes.

I agree the best way to understand Pearse is his own writing; especially his poetry. Not to mention the Proclamation. A document that's stood the test of time. It has rung true for a nation, for generations. No mean feat. It takes poetry to do that. And nobody can do everything. He was certainly a dreamer and a romantic.

They didn't have an army, they didn't have recruiting stations, or military academies where they could go. All that was taken away from this nation when the wild geese were deported in 1688 following the fall of Limerick. Having our own army is a basic right of national sovereignty that had been taken from us. Not having all that was not merely a quixotic oversight.

The men & women of '16 did the best they could. It was a case of, "For God's sake, let's do something, even if it's wrong." They were right to. Who knows when we'd have had independence without them. Not by 1922, that's for sure. If what a great revolutionary does is "recognize and sieze the time," they did it.

In reality, it was the rebels of 1916 who started the war that was won 1919-1921. As Yeats put it in a letter (I believe quoting a farmer) "The young men are desperately jealous of the old ones for dying."

All very romantic Seeker.....

But, what happened in 1922 was.......those in the North got their own way.....

And, that is exactly, for the sake of peace what the British wanted.....


Heroes.......whether it was a Slovakian peasant fighting on the river San, a German schoolteacher fighting at Verdun, or a Syrian fighting for the Ottoman Army in Iraq.......those who died were all heroes.....

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Bravo! There is abundant testimony from eye-witnesses & comrades throughout the War of Independence of Michael Collins in action, taking the bullets and giving them. It's not hard to find. Keep it coming.

Well bravo you too SM....I'm sure you are going to give us chapter and verse as to the what and where Collins was seen taking and giving these bullets in abundance.....?.

I'd like to add Dan Breen in his auto-bio mentions Collins was one of their ambush party when they went gunning for Lord French.

This one is worth a closer look....Bearing in mind Breen clearly states "we had no less than twelve different ambushes planned to intercept him.

Later on his only reference to his hero Michael Collins is just fourteen words in his 258 page book. "Mick Collins was with us on the first occasion that we lay in ambush"

But guess what ? not a single shot was fired in that 'gunning' because French changed his route.....no shots from Mick there then....or do you know something the rest of the world does not ?.

It's shocking how some otherwise apparently knowledgable, otherwise seeming "fans" can continue to try to palm off this rubbish claim that somehow Collins got through the whole war, including the GPO "without firing a shot."

Well as I'm the only one contradicting your earlier claim;

Quote; Getting back to Collins (being a Collins thread) as mentioned, he was respectfully but highly critical of the weaknesses of the 1916 Rising. But, without who knows if he would ever have fired a shot for Ireland http://www.dublinforum.net/forum/sho...postcount=1026

It's only fair I should address your personal attack as in....'apparently knowledgeable' 'otherwise seeming "fans" 'palm off this rubbish claim that somehow Collins got through the whole war, including the GPO without firing a shot'

Well SM, without resorting to sharp tongued sarcasm or personal attack, I can tell you categorically that Michael Collins never 'fired a shot for Ireland' against the British, in the GPO or the War of Independence.

As a Collins expert, you should know that.....But as you thus far have shown not one jot of hard evidence to back up your case, with the exception of 14 words from Dan Breen, none of which even hint at Collins firing a pea shooter.....both you and your story lack creditability.

As you're the one with all the rhetoric about an abundance of testimony from colleagues of Collins 'taking the bullets and giving them' perhaps you would like to put your money where your mouth is and ....as it's 'not hard to find' you might produce some of this abundant evidence for us here.

I remember when you first came in here you said in one post 'us chaps must stick together' or words to that effect.....but be honest now....you weren't being quite up front eh.

[cogito]

You miss my point....I'm well aware of all you've written here and I'm not in contention....I would agree also that MC wouldn't ask anyone to do what he wasn't prepared to do himself.....My point is not that he didn't get his hands dirty or that he left his dirty work to others.....why you bring it up I have no idea...

.

My argument is with Cathal Brugha on this issue - the comments he made during the Treaty debates still find currency today - mainly among those who have an agenda based on half baked versions of events at that time and are interested only in propaganda, not history. They're all over the internet.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

My argument is with Cathal Brugha on this issue - the comments he made during the Treaty debates still find currency today - mainly among those who have an agenda based on half baked versions of events at that time and are interested only in propaganda, not history. They're all over the internet.

Be that as it may, and I have little time for Brugha's tactics in relation to Collins....my point is... where and when did Collins fire his abundance of bullets for Ireland ?

[cogito]

Be that as it may, and I have little time for Brugha's tactics in relation to Collins....my point is... where and when did Collins fire his abundance of bullets for Ireland ?

I'll be interested to find out, the Vaughan's Hotel incident is the only account of a shootout I've come across.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

I'll be interested to find out, the Vaughan's Hotel incident is the only account of a shootout I've come across.

maybe Seeker can tell us both....The Vaughn's Hotel incident was not with the Brits, was it......We believe Collins fired shots at Beal na mBlath....at his own kind...But I have found no evidence whatever to confirm he ever fired a shot for Ireland at the Brits...ever....though Seeker talks a good story....she comes up with nothing but insults. Brugha had an axe to grind....I don't....my motive is simply to correct a written inaccuracy in here.

[cogito]

Frankly, I don't see it as a big deal either way - just a historical curiosity.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Frankly, I don't see it as a big deal either way - just a historical curiosity.

Nor me....it only becomes a big deal when someone babbles bullshit in yer face to the contrary.

[Hagar]

People are allowed hold opinions at variance with each other.
It goes against the spirit of the forum to dismiss other posters as someone who "babbles bullshit".
Play nice or don't play at all.

[Rashers]

A couple of photos from Glasnevin this morning (17th Aug 2014). If they don't fit in here let me know and I'll move them.

First pic is an Irish Army Colour Party and Piper at the grave today of their first Commander in Chief.

Second pic is Michael and the Sliabh na mBán together again for the first time in 92 years.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

A couple of photos from Glasnevin this morning (17th Aug 2014). If they don't fit in here let me know and I'll move them.

First pic is an Irish Army Colour Party and Piper at the grave today of their first Commander in Chief.

Second pic is Michael and the Sliabh na mBán together again for the first time in 92 years.

Great pix Rashers but why the 17th.

[Rashers]

Great pix Rashers but why the 17th.

The annual comemoration of the deaths of Michael Collins and Arthur Griffith.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

The annual comemoration of the deaths of Michael Collins and Arthur Griffith.

Enjoyed that thanks. The 17th being the nearest Sunday I guess.