Michael Collins

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

the Point about Pearse has been missed......

He would have been aware of the recent ''Opening up'' of Oklahoma and the previous settling of the Americas.....
He would have been well aware of the ''Scramble for Africa'' taking place.....
He probably would have sided with the Boers in the recent wars......

He was no ''freedom fighter''..........He wanted an Ireland , that was purely in his own image.....Free from all outside influence and one that, except in the minds of a few people ...Never had existed....

Far from the point being missed Q.....Pearse might well have been aware of topical world happenings of the day, that said, though fully aware of world events, I believe he was more preoccupied with his religion, the gaelic language, his bilingual school, Ireland the IRB and Irish Volunteers.

My point about Pearse is that he as a devout catholic he aligned most of what he did with religion and to a large extent Irish mythology.

For instance....I don't believe it was an accident that he, with supreme sacrifice in mind.....was heavily instrumental in choosing Holy Week and the Crucifiction of Christ to make his final move.

Considering he failed at everything he did in the long run.....his death can be seen as a form of triumph..... The author Ms Dudley Edwards got it right when she wrote her award winning book entitled 'Patrick Pearse; The Triumph of Failure'.

Those in anyway unconvinced of Pearse's underlying motives regarding his secret personal contribution to the Rising might have missed what he wrote about events in Europe early on in WW1.

In an article written in 1915, he gave a insight about where he was coming from when he wrote about patriotism;

“It is patriotism that stirs the people. Belgium defending her soil is heroic, and so is Turkey, It is good for the world that such things should be done.

The old heart of the earth needed to be warmed with the red wine of the battlefields. Such august homage was never before offered to God as this, the homage of millions of lives given gladly for love of country.”

Even more off the wall was Pearse's chats with his IRB brothers about installing the Kaiser's youngest son, Prince Joachim as an Irish constitutional monarch, if the Central Powers won the First World War. Pie in the sky !!!!

Conor Cruise O'Brien, wrote; "Pearse saw the Rising as a Passion Play with real blood."

Some historians saw Pearse's reputation and writings as a dangerous, fanatical, psychologically unsound individual under ultra-religious influences.

Although I applaud Pearse's courage, I would agree with both last statements above. IMO most religious fanatics are dangerous, and those who are not today, will most likely be tomorrow.

Pic; Brothers Pearse, William and Patrick Henry.

[quinner]

Far from the point being missed Q.....Pearse might well have been aware of topical world happenings of the day, that said, though fully aware of world events, I believe he was more preoccupied with his religion, the gaelic language, his bilingual school, Ireland the IRB and Irish Volunteers.

My point about Pearse is that he as a devout catholic he aligned most of what he did with religion and to a large extent Irish mythology.

For instance....I don't believe it was an accident that he, with supreme sacrifice in mind.....was heavily instrumental in choosing Holy Week and the Crucifiction of Christ to make his final move.

Considering he failed at everything he did in the long run.....his death can be seen as a form of triumph..... The author Ms Dudley Edwards got it right when she wrote her award winning book entitled 'Patrick Pearse; The Triumph of Failure'.

Those in anyway unconvinced of Pearse's underlying motives regarding his secret personal contribution to the Rising might have missed what he wrote about events in Europe early on in WW1.

In an article written in 1915, he gave a insight about where he was coming from when he wrote about patriotism;

“It is patriotism that stirs the people. Belgium defending her soil is heroic, and so is Turkey, It is good for the world that such things should be done.

The old heart of the earth needed to be warmed with the red wine of the battlefields. Such august homage was never before offered to God as this, the homage of millions of lives given gladly for love of country.”

Even more off the wall was Pearse's chats with his IRB brothers about installing the Kaiser's youngest son, Prince Joachim as an Irish constitutional monarch, if the Central Powers won the First World War. Pie in the sky !!!!

Conor Cruise O'Brien, wrote; "Pearse saw the Rising as a Passion Play with real blood."

Some historians saw Pearse's reputation and writings as a dangerous, fanatical, psychologically unsound individual under ultra-religious influences.

Although I applaud Pearse's courage, I would agree with both last statements above. IMO most religious fanatics are dangerous, and those who are not today, will most likely be tomorrow.

Pic; Brothers Pearse, William and Patrick Henry.

well, it didn't seem that he himself ''lacked freedom''.......I would feel that he would have shown contempt for English speaking poorly dressed kids running around Dublin......including kids from families that were well able to Speak Irish (having recently come from the country} to earn a living in the booming Metropolis and were pleased to see their kids speaking English and mixing in with the locals....

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

well, it didn't seem that he himself ''lacked freedom''.......I would feel that he would have shown contempt for English speaking poorly dressed kids running around Dublin......including kids from families that were well able to Speak Irish (having recently come from the country} to earn a living in the booming Metropolis and were pleased to see their kids speaking English and mixing in with the locals....

I'm not saying you're wrong....I know where you're coming from and I did say I believed you right re world events....My point is that religion was probably his main motivator as well as the Gaelic League. Let's face it ....Pearse was only a stones throw away from his fathers English roots....albeit his oul lady was steeped in her Irish heritage, language and all......he was very comfortably off growing up in his Da's place with the business doing a roaring trade.....and wasn't it his great aunt Maggie who inspired the lad to get involved in the native language.....He was privileged.......well schooled.....and just like Markievicz and Casement and others, a rebel without a cause.....they had everything including itchy feet. Latter day lovers of Ireland....could even be termed educated Plastic Paddies.

[quinner]

Poor little Belgium......

Belgium was not only used for the ''right hook'' plan, it was taken over ''lock stock and barrel''

The Germans even tried to negotiate to keep what they occupied.....

Whatever Pearse had in mind.........He certainly was ''blinded'' by his own ambitions...

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Poor little Belgium......

Belgium was not only used for the ''right hook'' plan, it was taken over ''lock stock and barrel''

The Germans even tried to negotiate to keep what they occupied.....

Whatever Pearse had in mind.........He certainly was ''blinded'' by his own ambitions...

Dying (like Christ ?) for his people perhaps ?.
Anyway....back te Michael Collins...can YOU tell me antin about him firing shots for Ireland ?

[quinner]

Dying (like Christ ?) for his people perhaps ?.
Anyway....back te Michael Collins...can YOU tell me antin about him firing shots for Ireland ?

I can tell you that during ww2 only 0.08% of allied soldiers actually fired at an enemy they could see.......
it did not make them lesser heroes......

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

I can tell you that during ww2 only 0.08% of allied soldiers actually fired at an enemy they could see.......it did not make them lesser heroes......

I'm sure you're right...but you missed my question....I'll answer it myself. Michael Collins will always be my Irish hero...Heroes do not have to fire weapons to be heroes .....Michael Collins never fired a shot for Ireland in his life.....and Charlie Burgess let him know it in no uncertain terms. Metaphorical shots yes....bullets no.

[quinner]

I'm sure you're right...but you missed my question....I'll answer it myself. Michael Collins will always be my Irish hero...Heroes do not have to fire weapons to be heroes .....Michael Collins never fired a shot for Ireland in his life.....and Charlie Burgess let him know it in no uncertain terms. Metaphorical shots yes....bullets no.

Now and again a ''rare man'' pops up in history.......Many who dream but cannot rise above that, will often exaggerate their own importance.....

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Now and again a ''rare man'' pops up in history.......Many who dream but cannot rise above that, will often exaggerate their own importance.....

Ye must be talkin about oul Dev eh. Pic; Collins family at his funeral.

[cogito]

Dying (like Christ ?) for his people perhaps ?.
Anyway....back te Michael Collins...can YOU tell me antin about him firing shots for Ireland ?

I'm sure you're right...but you missed my question....I'll answer it myself. Michael Collins will always be my Irish hero...Heroes do not have to fire weapons to be heroes .....Michael Collins never fired a shot for Ireland in his life.....and Charlie Burgess let him know it in no uncertain terms. Metaphorical shots yes....bullets no.

On your discussions with Quinner yesterday - this from a post I made on this thread two years ago - not sure if it counts as a 'shot for Ireland'...

Not really... but an interesting picture of the tensions in Dublin in April 1922, a few months before the outbreak of the Civil War... and one of the few documented cases where Collins was himself involved in the action - claims he 'shot' someone... both sides blamed the other for the incident, which happened outside Vaughans Hotel on Parnell Square...

From a contemporary Irish Times article...

'MR. MICHAEL Collins’s experience in Rutland [Parnell] Square on Sunday night was the subject of general comment in Dublin yesterday. Mr. Collins had arrived in the city, along with a few of his friends, from Naas. Their taxi cabs drew up at Vaughan’s Hotel. The party alighted, and Mr. Collins, standing on the footway, was talking to Mr. O’Muirthulo [sic] and others when the shots were fired.

Mr. Collins stated yesterday that it might have been that his attackers intended to seize him. The party, about 10 in number, rushed out of a house adjacent to the hotel in Rutland Square, and at once opened fire. He thought that they aimed at the cars. He replied with only one shot, and he believes that he wounded one of the attackers. His companions fired no shot. He chased one man into a doorway and took from him a revolver. Some of his assailants, he says, wore uniforms and were armed with rifles. The man who was captured [later named as Murphy] was lodged in Mountjoy Jail.

The following statement was issued last night by the Director of Publicity of the new Army Executive [anti-Treaty IRA]:

“The events of Sunday night have been misrepresented in important instances in the Press today. Certain I.R.A. Executive posts were attacked without any provocation whatever, as the following particulars will show:

“1 – At 11.10p.m. on the night in question while two members of the I.R.A. were on guard at 44 Parnell Square they were fired on from an open touring car which contained about eight men. Fire was returned, and the car proceeded towards Banba Hall. When the firing ceased, three members of the guard went out to take a motor outside an adjacent hotel for the purpose of driving to I.R.A. Headquarters at the Four Courts to report about the attack. Our men were fired on, and one, with an empty revolved, was disarmed and taken away.

“ll – About midnight an armour-plated tender, containing [pro-Treaty] forces from Beggars’ Bush [barracks], came down the square from the direction of Banba Hall. When opposite the I.R.A. Offices, 44 Parnell Square, a volley of shots was discharged at the house. The guard returned the fire.

“lV – Later a light armoured car, with a tender full of troops from Beggars’ Bush, questioned passers-by. The armoured car patrolled the vicinity of Parnell Square for about an hour, but no further firing took place.

“I wish to state definitely and emphatically that an attack on Mr. Michael Collins was not in any way intended or contemplated. He happened to be in the vicinity during the incidents at Parnell square, and thus got implicated in the matter.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...294910373.html

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

On your discussions with Quinner yesterday - this from a post I made on this thread two years ago - not sure if it counts as a 'shot for Ireland'...

Yes I was aware of this info...I guess both sides were shooting for their own brand of Ireland, in a roundabout way....My Collins 'shot for Ireland' would be against the Brits in the WOI....of which there is no evidence....and none from the GPO either.

[cogito]

Yes I was aware of this info...I guess both sides were shooting for their own brand of Ireland, in a roundabout way....My Collins 'shot for Ireland' would be against the Brits in the WOI....of which there is no evidence....and none from the GPO either.

The vast majority of the IRA during the Tan War never fired a shot at anyone - never mind hit their target.

Leaving aside the obvious statement that he was 'Ireland's most Wanted' by the authorities and effective CIC of the IRA during the period who had no business being out on the ground taking potshots at the enemy, there are enough documented instances of him getting directly involved in operations to show he was not one to hand over the dirty work to subordinates.

Off the top of the head - some operations he was directly involved in...

His overnight 'raid' on the G Division's HQ in Pearse Street when he obtained their intelligence files.

The springing of De Valera from Lincoln Gaol with Harry Boland. Presume they were armed...

The attempted springing of Sean MacKeoin from Mountjoy when he was under sentence of death - the Squad spent two days in close surveillance of the British armoured car and it's crew that was used in the raid on Mountjoy - they operated in shifts - two Squad members discovered to their horror that the person they were relieving from watch duty was Mick Collins.

More indignation and alarm from Squad members when they encountered Collins out on one of the search parties in the streets hunting down some dangerous target (Igoe?)... T Ryle Dwyer has more on that incident and others similar.

Any of those incidents could have resulted in a shootout with Crown Forces - as would any attempt by the same forces to apprehend him. He lived with that threat day and night for over two years without a break.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

The vast majority of the IRA during the Tan War never fired a shot at anyone - never mind hit their target.

Leaving aside the obvious statement that he was 'Ireland's most Wanted' by the authorities and effective CIC of the IRA during the period who had no business being out on the ground taking potshots at the enemy, there are enough documented instances of him getting directly involved in operations to show he was not one to hand over the dirty work to subordinates.

Off the top of the head - some operations he was directly involved in...

His overnight 'raid' on the G Division's HQ in Pearse Street when he obtained their intelligence files.

The springing of De Valera from Lincoln Gaol with Harry Boland. Presume they were armed...

The attempted springing of Sean MacKeoin from Mountjoy when he was under sentence of death - the Squad spent two days in close surveillance of the British armoured car and it's crew that was used in the raid on Mountjoy - they operated in shifts - two Squad members discovered to their horror that the person they were relieving from watch duty was Mick Collins.

More indignation and alarm from Squad members when they encountered Collins out on one of the search parties in the streets hunting down some dangerous target (Igoe?)... T Ryle Dwyer has more on that incident and others similar.

Any of those incidents could have resulted in a shootout with Crown Forces - as would any attempt by the same forces to apprehend him. He lived with that threat day and night for over two years without a break.

You miss my point....I'm well aware of all you've written here and I'm not in contention....I would agree also that MC wouldn't ask anyone to do what he wasn't prepared to do himself.....My point is not that he didn't get his hands dirty or that he left his dirty work to others.....why you bring it up I have no idea.

My point, and my only point was; contrary to what a - now - well known author said recently about MC firing a shot for Ireland.....Michael Collins fired many a metaphorical shot for Ireland....but no bullets.....except the bullets he fired at his own kind........ That's it.

[tolka1]

I can tell you that during ww2 only 0.08% of allied soldiers actually fired at an enemy they could see.......
it did not make them lesser heroes......

How many americans fired their guns in Vietnam?

[tolka1]

You miss my point....I'm well aware of all you've written here and I'm not in contention....I would agree also that MC wouldn't ask anyone to do what he wasn't prepared to do himself.....My point is not that he didn't get his hands dirty or that he left his dirty work to others.....why you bring it up I have no idea.

My point, and my only point was; contrary to what a - now - well known author said recently about MC firing a shot for Ireland.....Michael Collins fired many a metaphorical shot for Ireland....but no bullets.....except the bullets he fired at his own kind........ That's it.

It would make no sense for Collins to go out as he was the boss and what boss does the grafting work?Too valuable to lose so you don't risk it and that's just common sense.As regards the g.p.o.who says he didn't fire his weapon ? I assume he had one?