Ireland: From 1916 to the War of Independence

[KatieMorag]

that might be a little too detailed for my purposes Como, though it looks very interesting and I will definitely be browsing, so thank you. What I'm really driving at is whether the IRB and the non-IRB members of the Volunteers and Sinn Fein were working towards the same thing or whether de Valera etc. were only building up their weapons etc. in case of conscription......I keep reading that the IRB had "other plans" and "agendas" so does that mean that they were already thinking in terms of war, whether or not conscription was introduced?

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Firstly, in his book "Long Fellow, Long Shadow" Tim Pat Coogan says regarding the Volunteers "the executive was empowered to "declare war " should it prove necessary. It was generally understood that this power would only be exercised if Britain introduced conscription." Is this a fair assessment of the situation?

At that time Yes is the short answer.....Not to say if other reasons arose a war footing wouldn't be considered. I might be missing your point.

My next question is linked to this and concerns the IRB. In the same passage Coogan goes on to say that "there was a hidden agenda" and that though Cathal Brugha was Chief of Staff, it was the IRB men on the Executive like Collins and Diarmuid Lynch that had the real power.

Yes it was the IRB which had the real power all along....Pearse and Co of the IRB had infiltrated the Volunteers and ICA organisations...with the intention of using them at a later date....which is what happened in 1916.
Cathal Brugha on the other hand was a part timer in his job as Chief of Staff.......mainly because he spent most of his time as travelling salesman for his candle making business. Collins as Director of Intelligence and downline to Brugha had little time for his organisation abilities and bypassed him most of the time....doing business with Mulcahy for the most part.
Although a one time member himself (as was Dev) Brugha was not in favour of the oath sworn by IRB members, and viewed the IRB Supreme Council as undermining the Dail authority.....which it did.

Going by all of that it looks as though Dev and Brugha etc. saw the Volunteers as more of a defensive than a proactive force but the IRB men were already working towards revolution........

Depends on what year / time we are looking at. But the short answer is YES...Pearse and the IRB Supreme Council were plotting rebellion from 1915....Of course Dev and Brugha went along with that as we know...but later both Dev and Brugha had gripes with Collins methods of taking the fight to the Brits... They winged and moaned....in fact Dev as we know wasn't even there for the first crutial eighteen months of the WoI.... Brugha was sidelined.....and when Dev came back he disagreed with most of what Collins had done....telling him it was bad propaganda in the US etc... Dev was a prize wally at this point and as soon as he stepped off the boat and was told

“The Big Fellow is leading us and everything is going marvelous.” “Big Fellow,” de Valera huffed, “We'll see who's the Big Fellow!” It was apparent that Eamon de Valera did not return to Ireland to play second fiddle to Michael Collins.

but I'm confused as to how powerful they actually were at this point......if you go by TPC and others you'd assume they were very powerful but now I'm reading that they've been described as "moribund" at this time.

Who describes them as moribund.... What year are you talking about ? To my knowledge they were always planning the fight.

I'm putting up an article from The Irish Story website on this subject.....
somehow I can't reconcile the idea of a "moribund " organisation with one that "permeated the Volunteers at every level." Sorry for waffling on, to put it simply what exactly were the objectives of the Volunteers at this time, and did the likes of Dev and Brugha have different aims to Collins etc.? Or is it impossible to know any of this?

You will remember the Volunteers were instigated in 1913 by Irish nationalists, in response to the formation of the Ulster Volunteers in 1912, and its declared primary aim was "to secure and maintain the rights and liberties common to the whole people of Ireland"
wityh Mac Neill as puppet head of the volunteers and Connolly leading the ICA, the IRB now had their (secret) army.
[/QUOTE]So there my 10 pennerth....

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Actually I'm probably jumping the gun a bit - maybe at this stage (ie late 1917) none of the groups involved had come to any firm decisions regarding what their objectives were and were still building themselves up.....it will probably become clearer to me once we get into 1918.........

As my previous... 1913 the Volunteers organized instigated by the IRB.........1915 IRB Plans Rising... So the IRB were in full swing by then alright.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

that might be a little too detailed for my purposes Como, though it looks very interesting and I will definitely be browsing, so thank you. What I'm really driving at is whether the IRB and the non-IRB members of the Volunteers and Sinn Fein were working towards the same thing or whether de Valera etc. were only building up their weapons etc. in case of conscription......I keep reading that the IRB had "other plans" and "agendas" so does that mean that they were already thinking in terms of war, whether or not conscription was introduced?

Yes............. 1913 inauguration of the Volunteers ( IRB with Bul Hobson +) under the guise of an answer to the Ulster Volunteers.....

The Ulster Volunteers was a unionist militia founded in 1912 to block domestic self-government (or Home Rule) for Ireland

By 1915 IRB Plan for a Rising.

[KatieMorag]

Thanks DTW, that kind of clarifies the issue for me, and it's sort if what I thought was the case. The "moribund" thing is mentioned in the article. That's what I was confused about. Then again maybe I'm confusing the IRB as a whole with the "inner circle"........as in 1916 it was only a few IRB men, ie the Supreme Council, that planned and took part in the Rising, (which according to TPC was the reason Brugha despised them,) maybe the "moribund" description refers to the organisation as a whole rather than the leaders of it.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Thanks DTW, that kind of clarifies the issue for me, and it's sort if what I thought was the case. The "moribund" thing is mentioned in the article. That's what I was confused about. Then again maybe I'm confusing the IRB as a whole with the "inner circle"........as in 1916 it was only a few IRB men, ie the Supreme Council, that planned and took part in the Rising, (which according to TPC was the reason Brugha despised them,) maybe the "moribund" description refers to the organisation as a whole rather than the leaders of it.

Yes the world organisation of IRB had fallen into a bit of a slump....it was by 1914 they cut out the dead wood....and along with people like Hobson, McCullough, Patrick McCartan, John MacBride, Sean MacDermott, and Tom Clarke. Particularly Tom Clarke.....and Michael Collins (joined 1909) they got the show on the road. So moribund pre 1914 for sure....asleep nearly tbh.

[KatieMorag]

Also I guess the Volunteers that were distrustful of the IRB and maybe felt Collins etc. were getting too big for their boots probably wanted to play down how much influence it had, hence comments like the "moribund" one........

[KatieMorag]

1918 - The Irish Convention (contd.)

Negotiations recommenced early in January with further attempts to come to a settlement based around Lord Midleton's plan, which it will be remembered was designed to appeal to both Nationalists and Unionists by creating an all-Ireland Parliament but with safeguards put in place for the Ulster Unionists. Midleton had been to London to meet the Prime Minister, and returned with a written pledge, promising that if a majority of the Convention agreed to the Midleton plan the government would support it. This meant that it would be carried even if the Ulster Unionists opposed it. The matter was debated on the 4th January, with Redmond proposing the plan as an amendment. It looked for a while as though Midleton's idea would be used as the basis for a settlement, with even the Ulster Unionists apparently open to the idea, but Plunkett, the Chairman, then opened up a discussion on land purchase, and the opportunity was lost. Objections to the plan by various nationalists, in particular Bishop O'Donnell, then came to the fore, and Redmond, fearful of division in the nationalist ranks, dropped the amendment, regretfully announcing that "I feel I can be of no further service to the Convention."
Early in February, the Irish Party were heartened somewhat by a by-election win over Sinn Fein in Armagh South. The government then began to get more involved with the Convention, with Lloyd George meeting representatives from the various groups on 13th February. Carson, who had left the Cabinet in January, then asked Lloyd George to consider some form of federal government. Finally, Lloyd George wrote to the Convention, pledging that once they had the Convention's report, the Government "would proceed with the least possible delay to submit legislative proposals to Parliament." This legislation would be based on Midleton's plan, but with some changes. The new Irish Parliament would have increased Ulster representation, and Ulster would also have a Committee that could modify or veto legislation. The control of Customs and Excise would remain as it was until two years after the end of the war. Then a Royal Commission would be set up to review the situation. There was little support for Lloyd George's plans from either the Ulster Unionists or the Nationalists, and the Midleton plan was abandoned.
The Convention continued to run into difficulties through February and into March. The Ulster Unionists now decided to push for partition, there was division in the Southern Unionist ranks, with hardliners forming a new "Southern Unionist Committee", and Murphy and O'Donnell were still demanding full fiscal autonomy. In the midst of all this, on the 6th March, Redmond died in London.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Also I guess the Volunteers that were distrustful of the IRB and maybe felt Collins etc. were getting too big for their boots probably wanted to play down how much influence it had, hence comments like the "moribund" one........

Well not really... I'm not sure exactly what you mean, as the IRB were at all times 'in control' of the volunteer organisation with a lot of IRB men involved with both......with four IRB men in top key positions within the Volunteers.

Who do you attribute the moribund comment from TPC's book to.....TPC or someone else ?. I mean the common volunteer was not aware of the IRB pulling the strings when they signed up.....Mac Neill was aware right enough and knew what he was getting into, but that said, he had his own plans not to be a puppet, although ultimately he was.....when he was left in the dark about plans for the rising, and Hobson as you will know was taken out of the loop as rising plans progressed.

[cosmo]

that might be a little too detailed for my purposes Como, though it looks very interesting and I will definitely be browsing, so thank you. What I'm really driving at is whether the IRB and the non-IRB members of the Volunteers and Sinn Fein were working towards the same thing or whether de Valera etc. were only building up their weapons etc. in case of conscription......I keep reading that the IRB had "other plans" and "agendas" so does that mean that they were already thinking in terms of war, whether or not conscription was introduced?

Katie,

it is a very concise and 'true' volume of evidence given by most who took part in the rising and war of indipendance . the vast majority of the names who give statements are not well known, but a lot of them speak about rifts and muddled orders about operations etc, you can look at the prominent ones that we all know about and click on their alphabet letter and look to see what they say . its very interesting reading . most statements give from when the person was 'signed' up till the end of the war.

[KatieMorag]

Well not really... I'm not sure exactly what you mean, as the IRB were at all times 'in control' of the volunteer organisation with a lot of IRB men involved with both......with four IRB men in top key positions within the Volunteers.

Who do you attribute the moribund comment from TPC's book to.....TPC or someone else ?. I mean the common volunteer was not aware of the IRB pulling the strings when they signed up.....Mac Neill was aware right enough and knew what he was getting into, but that said, he had his own plans not to be a puppet, although ultimately he was.....when he was left in the dark about plans for the rising, and Hobson as you will know was taken out of the loop as rising plans progressed.

The "moribund" comment was in the article from The Irish Story website, I'll put it up again.

[KatieMorag]

This is the article, moribund comment near the bottom

http://www.theirishstory.com/2013/11.../#.WmsloVRl9Ls[/QUOTE]

[KatieMorag]

Katie,

it is a very concise and 'true' volume of evidence given by most who took part in the rising and war of indipendance . the vast majority of the names who give statements are not well known, but a lot of them speak about rifts and muddled orders about operations etc, you can look at the prominent ones that we all know about and click on their alphabet letter and look to see what they say . its very interesting reading . most statements give from when the person was 'signed' up till the end of the war.

i will definitely have a look through them, I do like to read first-hand accounts of events

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

The "moribund" comment was in the article from The Irish Story website, I'll put it up again.

Yeah....just found it....the comment was made by Seamus Robinson....well !!!!! the same Robinson who was noted to have never led his Brigade into one single bit of dirty work in all the time he was in charge.....We discussed him elsewhere in here....and I wouldn't take much heed of dear oul Seamus.....as much as he might have been keen.....none of his own had any confidence in him at all..... he was by all accounts small potatoes .........

Despite these post-Rising resignations, the IRB remained an active body. How active is a matter of debate. Séamus Robinson of the Third Tipperary Brigade asserted that the authority of the IRB at this time was “moribund where not already dead”. He left the IRB but not before attending a meeting in Dublin intended to revive the influence of the IRB within the Volunteers, an account that is both comical and scathing:

The evidence suggests that the IRB in fact was an important though unpredictable mobilising force in the Irish War of Independence

Here's what he said.....and he was wrong as it happens.

ROBINSON:
I saw young fellows with notebooks rushing round and about the ground floor (there were about 150 present) button-holing individuals with anxious whispers – “We must make sure that no one will be elected an officer of the Volunteers who is not a member of the ‘Organisation’” – as if that were something new or something we would be allowed to forget, and without adverting to the fact that that sort of thing would undermine the authority and efficiency of the whole Volunteer movement. Without waiting for the meeting to start officially I walked out in disgust thinking of Tammany Hall.

[KatieMorag]

That's what I meant when I said the ones who didn't like the IRB would have played down their importance and influence.......