Ireland: From 1916 to the War of Independence

[quinner]

As May went on and the executions continued, the British government came under increasing pressure to stop them. In the House of Commons, Irish MP John Dillon probably spoke for many when he said: "It is not murderers who are being executed, it is insurgents who fought a clean fight, a brave fight."
On 12th May, Prime Minister Asquith arrived in Dublin, where he ordered the executions to be stopped. It was too late, of course, for the fifteen men who had already been killed, including James Connolly and Sean MacDiarmada, who had been executed only that morning. They would take their places in the ranks of Ireland's national heroes, and the move towards radical nationalism was now irreversible.

''radical Nationalism'' means 32 Counties.........That is not what happened....

[KatieMorag]

By that I meant people who had been content to wait for Home Rule became more radical in their thinking, as would be seen in the rejection of the Irish Parliamentary Party and the rise of Sinn Fein.

[quinner]

By that I meant people who had been content to wait for Home Rule became more radical in their thinking, as would be seen in the rejection of the Irish Parliamentary Party and the rise of Sinn Fein.

The ''Treaty'' was a betrayal then.....

[cogito]

''radical Nationalism'' means 32 Counties........

'radical nationalism' means radical nationalism... nothing else.

[quinner]

'radical nationalism' means radical nationalism... nothing else.

It means that only some parts of Ireland gained ''independence''...The rest were abandoned.........

It seems ''not a lot of people know that''.....

[cogito]

It means that only some parts of Ireland gained ''independence''...The rest were abandoned.........

If I recall correctly your argument on this question is that the three quarters of the island that secured independence should have decided to stay under British rule until such time that the Unionists changed their minds about joining their southern neighbours.

Such an outcome would have pleased Lloyd George and the northern unionists no end... but I don't know who else.

It seems ''not a lot of people know that''.....

Why are you quoting Michael Caine at us ?

[quinner]

If I recall correctly your argument on this question is that the three quarters of the island that secured independence should have decided to stay under British rule until such time that the Unionists changed their minds about joining their southern neighbours.

Such an outcome would have pleased Lloyd George and the northern unionists no end... but I don't know who else.

Why are you quoting Michael Caine at us ?

I never mentioned the 'Unionists''......But as it pleases you to accuse me of doing so, I will understand as I am well aware that you support those who wrongly accuse me of allsorts....


The people in the ''North'' were abandoned, I am sad that you are clearly pleased it happened....I am not pleased it happened....It did not have to happen.....

[KatieMorag]

"The sight of Lower Sackville Street with the odour of burnt wood and debris of all kinds......All the old familiar landmarks were gone. The General Post Office, Elvery's Elephant House, the DBC Restaurant, The Metropole Hotel, The Coliseum Theatre......the old Waxworks Exhibition in Henry Street......were all gone in dust and debris...."
So wrote one Dublin resident, William Irwin, a few days after the Rising. There are many photographs of the city centre at this time, most of them featuring ordinary members of the public, some alone, others congregating in groups, but all of them perhaps feeling just like Irwin as they gazed on scenes more readily associated with the battlegrounds of Belgium and France than the heart of Dublin.
Business and property owners who had sustained losses during the Rising came together in Early May to form the Dublin Fire and Losses Association. This in turn led to the setting up of the Property Losses (Ireland) Committee, 1916 the following month. The Committee consisted of businessman Sir William Goulding and two insurance experts, William E. Osborn and Samuel Pipkin. For ten months they worked on assessing the claims of individuals and businesses, finally presenting their report on 7th April 1917. The government paid out a total of £1,844,390 in compensation.

[KatieMorag]

more on PLIC:

http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/compensating-for-the-rising-the-papers-of-the-property-losses-ireland-committee-1916/

[cosmo]

I never mentioned the 'Unionists''......But as it pleases you to accuse me of doing so, I will understand as I am well aware that you support those who wrongly accuse me of allsorts....


The people in the ''North'' were abandoned, I am sad that you are clearly pleased it happened....I am not pleased it happened....It did not have to happen.....

joe, we must remember that it was the british govt that abandoned the catholic nationalists in the north and also the protestant unionists in the south, and as for the treaty that was democraticly ratified by the then provisional govt. the rest is 'what if' they had stood united and formed a plan to the future which is now called Collins stepping stone or go back to war with the brits on a shoestring budget...... I can understand the catholics in the north being gutted at the time , and the protestant unionists in the south also, life changing to say the least.

[cosmo]

'' ulster and irish'' troops, crystal balling !!

[cosmo]

camogie [womens hurling] match between ucc/ucd in march 1916 in cork.

[KatieMorag]

great stuff Cos......,she looks like she could take on the British Army and the Ulster Unionists single-handed!

[KatieMorag]

The Home Rule Act

What, if any, was the effect of the Rising on the future of the Home Rule Act, which, it will remembered, was at that time in a state of suspended animation?
It's probably worth back-tracking a little here, to get a sense of what the Act actually was, how important it was to Irish people up until the Rising and how this was altered by the events of 1916.
The Third Home Rule Bill, introduced to the House of Commons in 1912, brought the issue of Irish self-government back to the Parliamentary table after many years in the political wilderness. It represented the life's work of IPP leader John Redmond and carried with it the hopes and dreams of the majority of Nationalists, particularly those of the burgeoning Catholic middle-class, who no doubt saw it as opening up all sorts of opportunities for them. However, it was very limited in its provisions and could hardly be described as offering "independence" to the Irish. Ireland would still be under the British Crown and there would still be a Lord Lieutenant, or something similar. There would of course be a bi-cameral Irish Parliament with power over a range of domestic affairs, but Westminster would still control all defence and foreign affairs and, for the first few years, the RIC. Taxation and financial matters would also be governed by Britain, although there was the possibility of further autonomy in the future, subject to how the Irish Parliament managed its budget over the course of a number of years. And the Irish would be under the overall control of the Imperial Parliament; which could, as Asquith said, "at any time nullify, amend or alter any act of the Irish Parliament". Despite these limitations, the Bill was warmly welcomed by Nationalist Ireland, and there was much rejoicing when it passed through the Commons for the third time in May 1914. The 1911 Parliament Act now meant that there was no need for it to be passed by the House of Lords, and it was submitted for the Royal Assent. However, its passage between the Commons and the Statute Book was far from easy, owing to the opposition of the Ulster Unionists. Throughout the summer a war of words was waged, which centred around which if any Ulster Counties should be excluded, and whether this exclusion was to be temporary or permanent. In the end, the First World War intervened. The Home Rule Act was put on the Statute Book on 18th September 1914, suspended for 12 months (or longer, if the war continued beyond that). An Amending Bill would then be introduced in an attempt to resolve the issue of Ulster's exclusion from the Act.


to be continued.

[KatieMorag]

article re people's expectations of Home Rule, north and south, from BBC History website

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/home_rule_movement_01.shtml