The Irish Civil War

[cosmo]

thats sorted then, well done d.t.w... i did think the fianna uniform didn`t look right.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

That makes more sense - weren't they the two Fianna members suspected of having been shot by some of the Oriel House people ?

That's right. Though there are examples of grudge reprisals on irregulars, it has to be acknowledged that having a group of 'terrorists' running 'amuck' taking pot-shots at the state's National Army personnel was not a clever thing to engage in.

The war was over....the best deal was done under the circumstances, the people had spoken and if Eamon de Valera and his compatriots believed they could have done better, they had every right to have tried at the time.

As Shaw said "oaths belong in the dustbin of history" and that "any practical statesman will, under duress, swallow a dozen oaths to get his hands on the driving wheel". finally when de Valera had come to see the sense of Shaw's assertion, he certainly swallowed his oath, just a pity it was too late to save the wholesale death and destruction along with his future blunders which would only serve to push the fledgling state back by at least fifty years, for what ? only to turn his back on his own in the long run and go on to sanction some of the worst injustices to those same brave though mislead unfortunates who could not see through him, no less to follow those who had gotten so addicted to a way of life that they found impossible to give it up.

Eamon deValera shakes the hand of Winston Churchill at 10 Downing Street, 1953. Why bother ?.

[Capt Patch]

That's right. Though there are examples of grudge reprisals on irregulars, it has to be acknowledged that having a group of 'terrorists' running 'amuck' taking pot-shots at the state's National Army personnel was not a clever thing to engage in ...DTW

The "terrorists running amuck" as you put it did NOT start the Civil War ... the Free State Government although in the middle of a deal to supply arms and men (both Free State and IRA) gave an untamatum just after midnight for the occupiers of the Four Courts to vacate by 4:00am !!! This was the very first time this demand was made ! The Four Courts garrison were all under strict instructions not to fire, still beliving that negotiations would take place and so let the Free State troops to within 35 feet of the Four Courts. Collins and Mulcahy jumped with haste to do the bidding of Llyod Goerge & Churchill who demanded that the State take out the Four Courts as they were responsabble for the assination of Wilson .... all along, Collins and Mulcahy knew that they themselves (backed by Costello and O'Higgins) had actually ordered the assination of Wilson !! Some hero !!

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

That's right. Though there are examples of grudge reprisals on irregulars, it has to be acknowledged that having a group of 'terrorists' running 'amuck' taking pot-shots at the state's National Army personnel was not a clever thing to engage in ...DTW

The "terrorists running amuck" as you put it did NOT start the Civil War ... the Free State Government although in the middle of a deal to supply arms and men (both Free State and IRA) gave an untamatum just after midnight for the occupiers of the Four Courts to vacate by 4:00am !!! This was the very first time this demand was made ! The Four Courts garrison were all under strict instructions not to fire, still beliving that negotiations would take place and so let the Free State troops to within 35 feet of the Four Courts. Collins and Mulcahy jumped with haste to do the bidding of Llyod Goerge & Churchill who demanded that the State take out the Four Courts as they were responsabble for the assination of Wilson .... all along, Collins and Mulcahy knew that they themselves (backed by Costello and O'Higgins) had actually ordered the assination of Wilson !! Some hero !!

Ahh CP, it's a very passionate subject and I understand where you are coming from....and my 'knowledge' and 'opinion' should not be mistaken for an attack on your 'knowledge' or 'opinion' nor was my comment designed simply to get a reaction....it's what I believe and as I was not involved at the time.....I or anyone as far as I can see can only form an opinion on what the historians and archivists tell us, be they family friends or strangers and of course our gut instinct can play a small part.

With that in mind I'd like to continue discussing the subject with you in a strictly historical context, with no intention of offending, riling or otherwise.
To that end your reply was interesting in the questions it raised.

1. Nowhere in my reply did I say the irregulars DID start the Civil War.
2. I am aware of the details of the Four Courts Siege.
3. Exactly how in your opinion did " Collins and Mulcahy (jump) jumped with haste to do the bidding of Llyod Goerge & Churchill"
4. I would be interested to know where I can find the positive proof that " all along, Collins and Mulcahy knew that they themselves (backed by Costello and O'Higgins) had actually ordered the assassination of Wilson !!
5. Your "some hero" comment begs the question of what in your opinion might give rise to anyone believing Michael Collins could be regarded as anything but an Irish hero. Bearing in mind I referred to the Irregulars as " brave though mislead unfortunates" albeit all heroes in their own way, in my opinion.

[Capt Patch]

Yup, no offense taken and I agree we have all formed our own openions over the years due to a number of inputs ... in my case, reading, talking and research. May I say that until relativly quite reasently Mick Collins was my "hero" much to the chargraine of my parents. However I have come to a different slant in the past few years due to perhaps some deeper thinking than I did before. I'll try and address your points :-

1) My inference here was that the Anti-Treaty side went to extrodinary lengths to avoid actual civil war and should not wholly take the blame that has been put upon them by the winning side as the starters of the civil war.

2. Not sure what you mean here, which "details" ? My latest knowledge is coming from the words of the men actually inside the Four Courts as it happened. Baring in mind that they were not necesserly aware of all that was happening from without.

3) This is an interesting comment seeing as my openion as to the lack of balls on Collin's part in not copping the blame for what is now well documented was his orders. I also understand that if he were to admit culpability that it would probably shatter the treaty talks so he was between a rock and a hard place. However, to agree to the British contention that the men in the Four Courts were to blame for Wilsons assination is beneath contempt ! Having said that, I have seen some documents relating to the meeting in Beggers Bush when they were planning the attack on the Four Courts, where one attendee said that the British demands were not in contention but that the big issue was the ire caused by the arrest of Ginger O'Connell (in retaliation for the arrest by the Free State of Leo Henderson). aand that it was time to take issue with the Four Courts.

4) Google for information on the accusation that Collins and Mulcahy - in fact the IRB excutive - were behind the assination of Wilson. There are other sources which at the moment I am not at liberty to release but will do when I have check them out.

5) My "some hero" remark is, as I thought anyone that read it , about the other side to his character. ie. we all have good and bad characterstics. irony in view of my previous remarks and openion.

Lastly I thouroughly agree with your comment re, "misled" as the ineptitude of the army excutive in the Four Courts was appaling. If you read Paul O'Brien's "Crossfire, the battle for the Four Courts 1916" you will see how the Four Courts should have been defended ... artillary aside. In 1922 There were three seperate "sortes" and a break out planned, manned and about to be excuited but were all aborted by the Excuitive. I'm not yet sure as to the reasons why but it's looking like that the excutive still thought that they could negotiate with the free State and were still in shock that the Free State actually attacked them.

I hope in some way that is sufficent explanation ?

[cogito]

Good post Capt..

On the Wilson assassination - I read a book on it many years ago - can't even remember who wrote it - but the understanding I took from it was that practically no one in Free State circles knew it was Collins' operation - least of all his cabinet colleagues like Griffith, O'Higgins or Cosgrave - and that they too, like the British, assumed it had been ordered by the Four Courts executive.

On the question of who or what started the war, I think the question often gets confused with what caused the conflict - they're separate issues. The attack on the Four Courts started it - that's a historical reality... the reasons for the conflict happening require a more complex approach though - and have a political as well as historical dimension.

Ginger O'Connell's 'kidnap' was a pretext for the ultimatum and attack I believe - it's unlikely he was in any great harm from his ex-comrades... the timing had much more to do with the reality that the British had already issued orders to Macready to attack the Four Courts - and re-occupy the country if necessary, such was the anger over Wilson's killing. We also know now that the 'non military' personalities - Griffiths, Cosgrave, O'Higgins etc. were putting major pressure on Collins and Mulcahy to drop all contacts with the 'rebels' - and get on with the business of bringing the new State's authority into play...

Lastly, we also know now that Collins and Mulcahy believed they had split the 'hardliners' in the Four Courts from Liam Lynch and his men of the 1st Southern Division in talks held only a week or two earlier - and that any fighting could be contained to Dublin... it seems in hindsight that neither side envisaged a full scale civil war at that time...

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Good post Capt..

On the Wilson assassination - I read a book on it many years ago - can't even remember who wrote it - but the understanding I took from it was that practically no one in Free State circles knew it was Collins' operation - least of all his cabinet colleagues like Griffith, O'Higgins or Cosgrave - and that they too, like the British, assumed it had been ordered by the Four Courts executive.

On the question of who or what started the war, I think the question often gets confused with what caused the conflict - they're separate issues. The attack on the Four Courts started it - that's a historical reality... the reasons for the conflict happening require a more complex approach though - and have a political as well as historical dimension.

Ginger O'Connell's 'kidnap' was a pretext for the ultimatum and attack I believe - it's unlikely he was in any great harm from his ex-comrades... the timing had much more to do with the reality that the British had already issued orders to Macready to attack the Four Courts - and re-occupy the country if necessary, such was the anger over Wilson's killing. We also know now that the 'non military' personalities - Griffiths, Cosgrave, O'Higgins etc. were putting major pressure on Collins and Mulcahy to drop all contacts with the 'rebels' - and get on with the business of bringing the new State's authority into play...

Lastly, we also know now that Collins and Mulcahy believed they had split the 'hardliners' in the Four Courts from Liam Lynch and his men of the 1st Southern Division in talks held only a week or two earlier - and that any fighting could be contained to Dublin... it seems in hindsight that neither side envisaged a full scale civil war at that time...

Jesus H. Christ I can't believe most of what I'm reading here...that's why I reply to this post first.... fantasy....regardless of what CP has advised me to do....DO NOT RELY ON GOOGLE....or some of the half baked authors who thinkthey have the inside at the time of writing. Sorry mucker but CP post is not a "good post"...and I will tell you why I believe that when I have more time....suffice to say I'm astonished by your view.

[cogito]

Jesus H. Christ I can't believe most of what I'm reading here...that's why I reply to this post first.... fantasy....regardless of what CP has advised me to do....DO NOT RELY ON GOOGLE....or some of the half baked authors who thinkthey have the inside at the time of writing. Sorry mucker but CP post is not a "good post"...and I will tell you why I believe that when I have more time....suffice to say I'm astonished by your view.

Good post DTW...

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Yup, no offense taken and I agree we have all formed our own openions over the years due to a number of inputs ... in my case, reading, talking and research. May I say that until relativly quite reasently Mick Collins was my "hero" much to the chargraine of my parents. However I have come to a different slant in the past few years due to perhaps some deeper thinking than I did before. I'll try and address your points :-

1) My inference here was that the Anti-Treaty side went to extrodinary lengths to avoid actual civil war and should not wholly take the blame that has been put upon them by the winning side as the starters of the civil war.

2. Not sure what you mean here, which "details" ? My latest knowledge is coming from the words of the men actually inside the Four Courts as it happened. Baring in mind that they were not necesserly aware of all that was happening from without.

3) This is an interesting comment seeing as my openion as to the lack of balls on Collin's part in not copping the blame for what is now well documented was his orders. I also understand that if he were to admit culpability that it would probably shatter the treaty talks so he was between a rock and a hard place. However, to agree to the British contention that the men in the Four Courts were to blame for Wilsons assination is beneath contempt ! Having said that, I have seen some documents relating to the meeting in Beggers Bush when they were planning the attack on the Four Courts, where one attendee said that the British demands were not in contention but that the big issue was the ire caused by the arrest of Ginger O'Connell (in retaliation for the arrest by the Free State of Leo Henderson). aand that it was time to take issue with the Four Courts.

4) Google for information on the accusation that Collins and Mulcahy - in fact the IRB excutive - were behind the assination of Wilson. There are other sources which at the moment I am not at liberty to release but will do when I have check them out.

5) My "some hero" remark is, as I thought anyone that read it , about the other side to his character. ie. we all have good and bad characterstics. irony in view of my previous remarks and openion.

Lastly I thouroughly agree with your comment re, "misled" as the ineptitude of the army excutive in the Four Courts was appaling. If you read Paul O'Brien's "Crossfire, the battle for the Four Courts 1916" you will see how the Four Courts should have been defended ... artillary aside. In 1922 There were three seperate "sortes" and a break out planned, manned and about to be excuited but were all aborted by the Excuitive. I'm not yet sure as to the reasons why but it's looking like that the excutive still thought that they could negotiate with the free State and were still in shock that the Free State actually attacked them.

I hope in some way that is sufficient explanation ?

I'll come back to hoping you will change my mind as to the facts as far as we can believe the historians and archivists....without having been there your / ourselves....I don't have the time right now to ask you to explain a great number of issues you refer to in this post....though I am more intrigued to learn what secret information you seem to have, and how (it appears) you and only you seem to be privy to such information.

I have to say that I appreciate you accepting my comments in the spirit they are intended...wholly historical....in the same breath I believe your 'inside' information....unpublished papers or other....is wrong. Notwithstanding our next exchange will make for a very interesting thread.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Good post DTW...

Bet you say that to all the girls !!!.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Shit shoot...isn't the international time difference a bummer.....but that said, having re-read your last reply...It is so far off the wall that I can't get my head down without addressing some of what I believe are gross inaccuracies you have printed in your last, though it wont be easy....

1) My inference here was that the Anti-Treaty side went to extrodinary lengths to avoid actual civil war....

What evidence do you proffer for this statement please ?

and should not wholly take the blame that has been put upon them by the winning side as the starters of the civil war.

Am I to believe you believe they are part way to blame then ?.

2. Not sure what you mean here, which "details" ? My latest knowledge is coming from the words of the men actually inside the Four Courts as it happened.

And you expect me and the world to believe their version of events ? Surely that would be like me asking you to believe Michael Collins' version events, would it not ?.

Baring in mind that they were not necesserly aware of all that was happening from without.

This bit is a contradiction in terms. If you don't mind me saying so. You submit your 'bible' of events to me as 'gospel' deduced from the words of those who were not 'necessarily' aware of all that was happening....Comon mate...we are either sure or unsure of what we digest.

3) This is an interesting comment seeing as my openion as to the lack of balls on Collin's part in not copping the blame for what is now well documented was his orders.

That as may be in your opinion....but I particularly asked you to point me towards that documentation. If you can and and it is plausible, I might change my mind.

I also understand that if he were to admit culpability that it would probably shatter the treaty talks so he was between a rock and a hard place.

Complete nonsense....please tell me why and how.

However, to agree to the British contention that the men in the Four Courts were to blame for Wilsons assination is beneath contempt !

Utter nonsense....Where did you get that from ? Collins expressly denied he believed the men in the Four Courts were to blame for the death of Wilson...fully documented in a now public memorandum. Please show me one shred of evidence that Collins agreed with the British authorities on this issue.

Having said that, I have seen some documents relating to the meeting in Beggers Bush when they were planning the attack on the Four Courts.

Yes I agree, Lloyd George and Churchill's immediate response was to order Gen Macreedy to attack the courts, though after he used delay tactics which resulted in agreement from Westminster, (good job too).

where one attendee said that the British demands were not in contention but that the big issue was the ire caused by the arrest of Ginger O'Connell (in retaliation for the arrest by the Free State of Leo Henderson). aand that it was time to take issue with the Four Courts.

Your facts according to the experts are correct....though if I may say,somewhat confused. The kidnap of General O'Connell was, as /is known to well researched historians, the straw that broke the camels back insofar as Collins was concerned....and after employing numerous restraints to avoid a head to head attack (of which you will be in no doubt aware) after one final ultimatum which was ignored...the Irregular forces provided Collins with a solution to his loyalty problem....in that he ordered the attack.

4) Google for information on the accusation that Collins and Mulcahy - in fact the IRB excutive - were behind the assination of Wilson.

CP...in all honesty....to suggest that I, or you or anyone should take to Google for proof that Collins, Mulcahy or Uncle Tom Cobly was responsible for ordering the assassination of Wilson........is incredible. Why ? because I'm sure that anyone who had an ounce of interest in the subject was reading the subject long before Google was invented....so please........I'd rather listen to the man in the moon......and so should you.....and Cogs for that matter lol.

There are other sources which at the moment I am not at liberty to release but will do when I have check them out.

Other sources ? You are not at liberty to release ? What are you on ?....is it not usual to check things out before professing to know the facts.....I'm intrigued by your 'cloak and dagger'.... "other sources" CP....really intrigued.
With tongue in cheek and a big lol....are you in the CIA, IRB or do you really have information unknown to the worlds foremost researchers on this subject.....sorry my friend, but convince me.....

5) My "some hero" remark is, as I thought anyone that read it , about the other side to his character.

That was not my direct assertion or question....Yes ? or No ?...am I to take it that you would not regard Michael Collins as an Irish Hero....warts and all.

ie. we all have good and bad characterstics. irony in view of my previous remarks and openion.

Of course....goes without saying.

Lastly I thouroughly agree with your comment re, "misled" as the ineptitude of the army excutive in the Four Courts was appaling.

Agreed....downright suicide along with the destruction of the other side of O'Connell Street.....notwithstanding the death of many a good man...and for what I ask....for what.

If you read Paul O'Brien's "Crossfire, the battle for the Four Courts 1916" you will see how the Four Courts should have been defended ... artillary aside.

I'm sure I will get around to reading what special inside information Mr O'Brien has unearthed, in due course CP....meanwhile I would prefer to rely on the research of our more acclaimed writers and the Bureau of....to be sure. Though thanks for the recommend.

In 1922 There were three seperate "sortes" and a break out planned, manned and about to be excuited but were all aborted by the Excuitive. I'm not yet sure as to the reasons why but it's looking like that the excutive still thought that they could negotiate with the free State and were still in shock that the Free State actually attacked them.

Thanks CP....but as one forum fan to another..if I was to believe what you believe....that the Irregular Leadership

"still thought that they could negotiate with the free State and were still in shock that the Free State actually attacked them".

then they were more fools than I thought up to now..........

I hope in some way that is sufficient explanation ? Me too....with respect.

[Capt Patch]

It's really not worth my time answering your off the rail post. You have made assumptions on my behalf that again are not worth spending the time on. The documentation that I have is , as I said, not for publication until I can sort fact from fiction and assertion.

I see you have swallowed hook line and sinker what was published in the past with the support of the victor .. " to the victor go the spoils " and also the the right to write the history.

Sorry if I am not off the same openion as your precious self. !

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

A Sunburst and Clouds (1922)by soon to be Governor General Tim Healy.


The outgoing British garrisons, embarrassed by this civil strife, unintentionally bred trouble for the Free State. Their officers had been harried and kidnapped and many of them slain, so no friendly feelings towards the incoming authority could be cherished. Munitions and barracks were handed over (unwittingly) to foes hostile to the Treaty in some cases. The departing regiments knew little of the political hue of their successors, and gave up places of strength, undiscerning differences of politics.

To no fault of theirs was due the case of Limerick, where the question of the control of the Castle of King John and other barracks led to civil war. The outgoing British commanders asked extremists to take charge, and were refused. Collins therefore requested a Clare battalion to fill the gap. This aroused jealousy amongst the logicians who had declined responsibility.

When the Clare contingent marched in, the opponents of the Treaty mustered supporters from all parts of Ireland, and threatened fight unless the Castle was entrusted to them. They could easily have been dealt with, but so reluctant was Collins to spill blood that he gave them control. A few shots then would have spared Ireland two years of strife.

Having triumphed in Limerick, the mutineers thought that bluff would succeed elsewhere. The censorship (now native) misled public opinion by hindering knowledge of the truth. De Valera told the Dublin correspondent of the Manchester Guardian that "his army" would put the Provisional Government out in a month, and emphasized this prophecy by banging the table with his fist.

I had crossed to London at this epoch, and on my return wrote:

Chapelizod,
20th March, 1922.
"I met Bonar Law yesterday, and I could see he is bitter against any change being made in the Ulster Boundary. If Lloyd George resigns, Bonar will be Prime Minister, and will hardly appoint a friendly umpire of the Boundary Commission.

The Government have agreed to Lord Shaw acting as the "Rebellion Losses" chairman. Duggan wants me to appear at the inquiry as counsel."

At the request of one of de Valera's friends, I called at his office to remonstrate with him against stirring up armed resistance. Beforehand I saw Collins, who told me it was useless. Still, I went, and gave my brother the following account of the visit:

Chapelizod,
25th March, 1922.
"I saw de Valera on Thursday and tried to reason with him. He was very civil, but I could see their plan is to stop the elections, In this they will be defeated, except in a few districts. Then they will become like the Parnellite faction 30 years ago, only worse. Harry Boland kept the door of de Valera's room, and I left sensing tragedy."

I begged de Valera to discountenance a conventicle of his army "chiefs" who were about to meet in Dublin. Griffith proclaimed the gathering an "illegal assembly," but de Valera protested to me that he had nothing to do with the "army."

I told him he would be a sorry man in 12 months' time if he lent himself to force. He replied he didn't think so. I remarked, "I am an expert in 'splits,' and believe I can forecast the result better than you." He smiled. I wrote Maurice:

Chapelizod,
27th March, 1922.
De Valera's military clique met yesterday at the Mansion House to capture the Army, but made a poor display in point of influence and numbers. Yet they will give trouble, as jealousy is always potent.

Collins's speech in Waterford was excellent. He sent a man to consult me about the Belfast "Specials," an illegal force, I think, unless appointed by the Competent Military Authority under the Restoration of Order Regulations."

Chapelizod,
31st March, 1922.
"In arranging for the Treaty, blundering has led to the present uncertainties. If the British had provided for a continuation of their occupation until an election enabled a lawful Government to be established, we should not be in the mess we are.

Their treatment of the police, both in Dublin and in the country, has taken all the heart out of the preservers of order, and the wonder is that there is not a greater rampancy of crime. I suppose it is the "dole" to the unemployed that is keeping the poor quiet.

In this village, the distillery is closed owing to the heavy whisky tax, and hundreds are out of work. Yet I have not heard of a single theft, nor has the number of beggars calling on me increased. I wish the rest of the world were as quiet and orderly as Dublin, although we have two hostile armed forces coping with one another."

De Valera affected to believe that the British evacuation was a sham and would never take place. The Provisional Government therefore urged the War Office to hurry off the garrison. The cunning of their opponents lay in the hope that their "resolutes" could fall upon the raw levies which were all that Collins and Griffith had at their command.

When Griffith proclaimed illegal the meeting of de Valera's army chiefs in Dublin, I besought Collins to disperse them. Good nature again, as in Limerick, prevailed over good sense. For three months little was done to check the mutineers. Patriotism was played upon by futile "negotiations."

The Freeman published, on 26th March, an account of the secret debate of the mutineers supplied by the Provisional Government, whereupon Rory O'Connor sallied from the Four Courts and smashed its machinery. He had been levying toll on the civil population for weeks. On the day he entered the Courts I implored Collins to drive him out, which then could easily have been done.



Four Courts Attack

He was son of the Solicitor to the British Congested Districts Board, and a Corporation official. Seizing the Courts began the Civil War. He also put a garrison into Kilmainham Jail, where a few British soldiers remained, but when General Macready notified him that he would attack unless they withdrew, they left. The Ballast Office, too, was "taken," but its employés, thrown out of work by the commotion, assembled to jeer at the entrants, who then skedaddled. The difference in morale between the insurgents of 1916 against the British and those of 1922 against their own countrymen showed that the new forces had no heart in the contest.

In June, O'Connor arrested General O'Connell, of the National Army, and this at length determined Collins to end the reign of lawlessness. The impatience of Mr. Churchill led him into a telegram which made it arguable that he was the instigator of attack.

Before this (28th June, 1922) de Valera's forces turned machine-guns on the National troops in Wellington Barracks, Dublin (formerly Richmond Prison-now called Griffith Barracks). One of the Irregular leaders was inside at the time arguing for a compromise, and deplored the fusillade as certain to bring about unhappy consequences.

A general election had meanwhile ratified the acceptance of the Treaty, despite violence. As a last resort against disorder Collins, after negotiating for two hours, shelled the Four Courts. Rory O'Connor, on being called upon to surrender, issued this defiance:

"9 a.m., 28th June, 1922.
At 3.40 this morning we received a note signed by Tom Ennis demanding on behalf of "The Government" our surrender at 4 p.m., when he would attack.
He opened fire at 4.7 in the name of his Government, with rifle, machine and field pieces.

The boys are glorious, and will fight for the Republic to the end. How long will our misguided former comrades outside attach those who stand for Ireland alone? Three casualties so far, all slight. Father Albert and Father Dominic with us here.Our love to all comrades outside, and the brave boys especially of the Dublin Brigade.
(Signed) Rory O'Connor, Major-General, I.R.A. Four Courts."


It was an overture to an inglorious symphony. After a feeble resistance "Rory" hoisted the white Flag without the loss of a man. Before the surrender he laid land-mines, filled with explosives timed to burst two hours after. Up to that, the Four Courts was little damaged, and the Record Office, with its precious historical collections, lay intact. The mines went off, when he and his braves were safe in prison. They shattered the fabric of the Courts and destroyed the Record Office. Twenty Free State soldiers were maimed, many for life, yet no punishment was exacted for this treacherous breach of the rules of war.

Great post R.........it says it all.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

It's really not worth my time answering your off the rail post. You have made assumptions on my behalf that again are not worth spending the time on.(WHERE PLEASE ?) The documentation that I have is , as I said, not for publication until I can sort fact from fiction and assertion.

I see you have swallowed hook line and sinker what was published in the past with the support of the victor .. " to the victor go the spoils " and also the the right to write the history.

Sorry if I am not off the same openion as your precious self. !

CP...I have always regarded you and your posts with respect....never to my knowledge have we disagreed until now.....more importantly, I have never knowingly insulted you for your opinion on any matter in the past, and certainly not on anything regarding our current discussion.

If your answer to awkward questions is 'insult' then perhaps you are right for the discussion to stop right now....that said....You have not given me one straightforward answer to any of my questions, and I believe you have fudged these answers by employing some 'secret' documents you can't tell us about....really CP ?.

You accuse me of writing 'off the wall posts' and 'swallowing' lies....though by your own admission you have still not sorted out "fact from fiction" How on earth can you contradict, ridicule and insult me when you admit you have not to date separated the "fact from fiction" regarding the subject.....I am wholly confused by your argument. Do you believe in what you print or don't you....yes or no ???'

One last request before we both stop wasting time;

Please could you find me an answer to these three straightforward and simple questions which you avoided in the first instance.....if you can't, then I must assume you seriously do not know....the facts from the fiction.

Repeat;
3. Exactly how in your opinion did " Collins and Mulcahy jump (jumped) with haste to do the bidding of Llyod Goerge & Churchill"

4. I would be interested to know where I can find the positive proof that " all along, Collins and Mulcahy knew that they themselves (backed by Costello and O'Higgins) had actually ordered the assassination of Wilson !!

5. Your "some hero" comment begs the question of what in your opinion might give rise to anyone believing Michael Collins could be regarded as anything but an Irish hero. Bearing in mind I referred to the Irregulars as " brave though mislead unfortunates" albeit all heroes in their own way, in my opinion. Thanks.

http://dublinforum.net/forum/showpost.php?p=215977&postcount=75

[quinner]

A Sunburst and Clouds (1922)by soon to be Governor General Tim Healy.


The outgoing British garrisons, embarrassed by this civil strife, unintentionally bred trouble for the Free State. Their officers had been harried and kidnapped and many of them slain, so no friendly feelings towards the incoming authority could be cherished. Munitions and barracks were handed over (unwittingly) to foes hostile to the Treaty in some cases. The departing regiments knew little of the political hue of their successors, and gave up places of strength, undiscerning differences of politics.

To no fault of theirs was due the case of Limerick, where the question of the control of the Castle of King John and other barracks led to civil war. The outgoing British commanders asked extremists to take charge, and were refused. Collins therefore requested a Clare battalion to fill the gap. This aroused jealousy amongst the logicians who had declined responsibility.

When the Clare contingent marched in, the opponents of the Treaty mustered supporters from all parts of Ireland, and threatened fight unless the Castle was entrusted to them. They could easily have been dealt with, but so reluctant was Collins to spill blood that he gave them control. A few shots then would have spared Ireland two years of strife.

Having triumphed in Limerick, the mutineers thought that bluff would succeed elsewhere. The censorship (now native) misled public opinion by hindering knowledge of the truth. De Valera told the Dublin correspondent of the Manchester Guardian that "his army" would put the Provisional Government out in a month, and emphasized this prophecy by banging the table with his fist.

I had crossed to London at this epoch, and on my return wrote:

Chapelizod,
20th March, 1922.
"I met Bonar Law yesterday, and I could see he is bitter against any change being made in the Ulster Boundary. If Lloyd George resigns, Bonar will be Prime Minister, and will hardly appoint a friendly umpire of the Boundary Commission.

The Government have agreed to Lord Shaw acting as the "Rebellion Losses" chairman. Duggan wants me to appear at the inquiry as counsel."

At the request of one of de Valera's friends, I called at his office to remonstrate with him against stirring up armed resistance. Beforehand I saw Collins, who told me it was useless. Still, I went, and gave my brother the following account of the visit:

Chapelizod,
25th March, 1922.
"I saw de Valera on Thursday and tried to reason with him. He was very civil, but I could see their plan is to stop the elections, In this they will be defeated, except in a few districts. Then they will become like the Parnellite faction 30 years ago, only worse. Harry Boland kept the door of de Valera's room, and I left sensing tragedy."

I begged de Valera to discountenance a conventicle of his army "chiefs" who were about to meet in Dublin. Griffith proclaimed the gathering an "illegal assembly," but de Valera protested to me that he had nothing to do with the "army."

I told him he would be a sorry man in 12 months' time if he lent himself to force. He replied he didn't think so. I remarked, "I am an expert in 'splits,' and believe I can forecast the result better than you." He smiled. I wrote Maurice:

Chapelizod,
27th March, 1922.
De Valera's military clique met yesterday at the Mansion House to capture the Army, but made a poor display in point of influence and numbers. Yet they will give trouble, as jealousy is always potent.

Collins's speech in Waterford was excellent. He sent a man to consult me about the Belfast "Specials," an illegal force, I think, unless appointed by the Competent Military Authority under the Restoration of Order Regulations."

Chapelizod,
31st March, 1922.
"In arranging for the Treaty, blundering has led to the present uncertainties. If the British had provided for a continuation of their occupation until an election enabled a lawful Government to be established, we should not be in the mess we are.

Their treatment of the police, both in Dublin and in the country, has taken all the heart out of the preservers of order, and the wonder is that there is not a greater rampancy of crime. I suppose it is the "dole" to the unemployed that is keeping the poor quiet.

In this village, the distillery is closed owing to the heavy whisky tax, and hundreds are out of work. Yet I have not heard of a single theft, nor has the number of beggars calling on me increased. I wish the rest of the world were as quiet and orderly as Dublin, although we have two hostile armed forces coping with one another."

De Valera affected to believe that the British evacuation was a sham and would never take place. The Provisional Government therefore urged the War Office to hurry off the garrison. The cunning of their opponents lay in the hope that their "resolutes" could fall upon the raw levies which were all that Collins and Griffith had at their command.

When Griffith proclaimed illegal the meeting of de Valera's army chiefs in Dublin, I besought Collins to disperse them. Good nature again, as in Limerick, prevailed over good sense. For three months little was done to check the mutineers. Patriotism was played upon by futile "negotiations."

The Freeman published, on 26th March, an account of the secret debate of the mutineers supplied by the Provisional Government, whereupon Rory O'Connor sallied from the Four Courts and smashed its machinery. He had been levying toll on the civil population for weeks. On the day he entered the Courts I implored Collins to drive him out, which then could easily have been done.



Four Courts Attack

He was son of the Solicitor to the British Congested Districts Board, and a Corporation official. Seizing the Courts began the Civil War. He also put a garrison into Kilmainham Jail, where a few British soldiers remained, but when General Macready notified him that he would attack unless they withdrew, they left. The Ballast Office, too, was "taken," but its employés, thrown out of work by the commotion, assembled to jeer at the entrants, who then skedaddled. The difference in morale between the insurgents of 1916 against the British and those of 1922 against their own countrymen showed that the new forces had no heart in the contest.

In June, O'Connor arrested General O'Connell, of the National Army, and this at length determined Collins to end the reign of lawlessness. The impatience of Mr. Churchill led him into a telegram which made it arguable that he was the instigator of attack.

Before this (28th June, 1922) de Valera's forces turned machine-guns on the National troops in Wellington Barracks, Dublin (formerly Richmond Prison-now called Griffith Barracks). One of the Irregular leaders was inside at the time arguing for a compromise, and deplored the fusillade as certain to bring about unhappy consequences.

A general election had meanwhile ratified the acceptance of the Treaty, despite violence. As a last resort against disorder Collins, after negotiating for two hours, shelled the Four Courts. Rory O'Connor, on being called upon to surrender, issued this defiance:

"9 a.m., 28th June, 1922.
At 3.40 this morning we received a note signed by Tom Ennis demanding on behalf of "The Government" our surrender at 4 p.m., when he would attack.
He opened fire at 4.7 in the name of his Government, with rifle, machine and field pieces.

The boys are glorious, and will fight for the Republic to the end. How long will our misguided former comrades outside attach those who stand for Ireland alone? Three casualties so far, all slight. Father Albert and Father Dominic with us here.Our love to all comrades outside, and the brave boys especially of the Dublin Brigade.
(Signed) Rory O'Connor, Major-General, I.R.A. Four Courts."


It was an overture to an inglorious symphony. After a feeble resistance "Rory" hoisted the white Flag without the loss of a man. Before the surrender he laid land-mines, filled with explosives timed to burst two hours after. Up to that, the Four Courts was little damaged, and the Record Office, with its precious historical collections, lay intact. The mines went off, when he and his braves were safe in prison. They shattered the fabric of the Courts and destroyed the Record Office. Twenty Free State soldiers were maimed, many for life, yet no punishment was exacted for this treacherous breach of the rules of war.

the last paragraph says..............yet no punishment was exacted.........

no,but it certainly set the standard for the rest of that war.......

and the wounds that followed have seemingly not healed to this very day......

the world is full of heroes....and yes, they should be respected, but, in my opinion....not idolised.....