The Irish Civil War

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Looks posed though with all those people strolling about on their daily business. Probably taken in the last few days before the shooting war began in earnest - there was a lot of squaring off and throwing shapes between both sides.

When the fighting in the 'block' started in the O'Connell Street area, outside of some sniping in the south city the largest scale action south of the river was at Aungier Street where the Swan Pub was held as a battalion HQ by the Republicans... one of your Rolls Royce Whippets was used to help clear it of defenders.

Yes definitely posed....it's another Hogan shot, and most of his stuff was posed or taken under secure circumstances.

As you'll know he was retained by the FS Govt to record the war for various reasons, in particular his work was used by the Dail Director of Publicity (1919) Thomas Joseph aka Desmond Fitzgerald for propaganda / publicity purposes. Quite a number of the Hogan pix turned up in the Fitzgerald papers donated to UCD.

Fitzgerald, another Englishman like so many others who decided to help the Irish in their freedom struggle, was present in the GPO 1916 as a non combatant. Jailed on many occasions, he later served in various offices as a politician.....as senator up 1943, and died 1947.

Heading for Kerry.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

'Superior knowledge' ??!! About time that was recognised... I've been saying it for years but never got a blind bit of notice...

Back to the fighters in civvies pictures, these three pics - all from the same scene from what I can make out - appear to have a mixture of uniformed and non uniformed soldiers. So who are they ? And when were the pictures taken ? - before the Four Courts IMO. People seem to be going about their daily business which would have been highly unlikely when the shells and bullets were flying...

Don't get too excited... Superior knowledge on this pro v anti Treaty personnel subject only.....all past and future contributions have been and will be scored on their accuracy and merit at time of posting.....Pipe in it smoke .

[quinner]

Don't get too excited... Superior knowledge on this pro v anti Treaty personnel subject only.....all past and future contributions have been and will be scored on their accuracy and merit at time of posting.....Pipe in it smoke .

Whodunnit...?

[cogito]

Yes definitely posed....it's another Hogan shot, and most of his stuff was posed or taken under secure circumstances.

As you'll know he was retained by the FS Govt to record the war for various reasons, in particular his work was used by the Dail Director of Publicity (1919) Thomas Joseph aka Desmond Fitzgerald for propaganda / publicity purposes. Quite a number of the Hogan pix turned up in the Fitzgerald papers donated to UCD.

Fitzgerald, another Englishman like so many others who decided to help the Irish in their freedom struggle, was present in the GPO 1916 as a non combatant. Jailed on many occasions, he later served in various offices as a politician.....as senator up 1943, and died 1947.

Heading for Kerry.

From what I remember he should have accompanied the treaty delegation to London - he was Collins's choice. At the last moment Dev inserted Erskine Childers... so he could keep an eye on Griffith, Collins and the rest of them.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Whodunnit...?

Yill have a pair when yer a man. More Free State Troopers....they learned quick that they needed some way of checking the fierce recoil of the guns......there were no trained men as such....it was for all intents and purposes learned on the hoof.....and it took a bit of getting used to......the 20 shells per gun the Brits passed over were shrapnel and very motorbike ashtray ish.....the Brits were wary that the ammo could end up being used against them should it all go belly up.....as it happened thet passed over the right gear and it pumped holes in the Courts masonry.....the rest is history. This pic shows preps for tackling Cathal Brugha and his anti treaty pals holed up in the Hammam Hotel next to the Gresham.....and what a mess it all turned out in the end.....buildings torn apart and burning to cinders.....Brugha dead because he simply could not accept he was on the wrong side and couldn't stand the indignity of surrendering....they pleaded with him but he kept on firing with a pistol in each hand until they took him down......he was so full of lead from his earlier 1916 firefight with the Brits at the South Dublin Union....though he survived that lot....he wouldn't survive what his own served up.....unfortunately.

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yill have a pair when yer a man. More free state troopers....they learned quick that they needed some way of checking the fierce recoil of the guns......there were no trained men as such....it was for all intents and purposes learned on the hoof.....and it took a bit of getting used to......the 20 shells per gun the brits passed over were shrapnel and very motorbike ashtray ish.....the brits were wary that the ammo could end up being used against them should it all go belly up.....as it happened thet passed over the right gear and it pumped holes in the courts masonry.....the rest is history. This pic shows preps for tackling cathal brugha and his anti treaty pals holed up in the hammam hotel next to the gresham.....and what a mess it all turned out in the end.....buildings torn apart and burning to cinders.....brugha dead because he simply could not accept he was on the wrong side and couldn't stand the indignity of surrendering....they pleaded with him but he kept on firing with a pistol in each hand until they took him down......he was so full of lead from his earlier 1916 firefight with the brits at the south dublin union....though he survived that lot....he wouldn't survive what his own served up.....unfortunately.

howitzers being fired as cannon.....?

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

From what I remember he should have accompanied the treaty delegation to London - he was Collins's choice. At the last moment Dev inserted Erskine Childers... so he could keep an eye on Griffith, Collins and the rest of them.

Yes quite, what an ass, a personal spy in the camp.....He sent them to negotiate dominion status within the commonwealth...with full powers to make decisions......then changed his mind and without telling the Dail he changed the rules of engagement.......then throws it out the cot when they come back with it.....bleating about not having the last word on the matter before it was signed.....what a pathetic excuse.....he simply made the rules up as he went....with Brugha and Stack whispering anti Collins crap in his ears.

Fitzgerald failed to persuade Dev to go to London himself.....but Dev knew it was a one way street to dominion status.....he knew all along because Lloyd George kept repeating it over and over.....NO REPUBLIC.....but Dev knew what he'd do to appear the saviour of Irish face huh....what a feckin eejih.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

howitzers being fired as cannon.....?

Errr Ummmm........... 18 Pounder Field Guns....nay cannon.

[cogito]

Garrett's oul' fellah...

Desmond_FitzGerald.jpg

From Wiki...

He joined the Irish Volunteers in 1914 and organised a Volunteers group in County Kerry. In 1915 FitzGerald was imprisoned for making a political speech. He was later expelled from Kerry and moved to County Wicklow. He fought at the General Post Office during the 1916 Rising and was imprisoned after the surrender.

FitzGerald's memoir of the 1916 rising inside the GPO mentions the sudden and unexpected mobilisation, followed by a description of conditions in the GPO, the rebels' headquarters. While many accounts place the rising as a form of blood sacrifice, FitzGerald discussed its wider rationale with the leader Patrick Pearse, and with Joseph Plunkett who had travelled to Germany in 1915 for assistance. They expected that Germany would win the First World War and that a rising of at least three days would allow Ireland to take a seat at the peace conference. Though declaring an Irish Republic in 1916, they considered it would probably be necessary to invite the Kaiser's youngest son Joachim to reign a reformed kingdom of Ireland after the war, where Irish would again become the vernacular.[3]

He was released in 1918 when he was elected as a Sinn Féin MP for the Dublin Pembroke constituency.[4] Following the assembly of the First Dáil in 1919, FitzGerald was appointed Director of Publicity for Dáil Éireann, editing the Irish Bulletin. During the Irish War of Independence (1919–21) the Bulletin managed to publicise the aims of the Irish Republic to the wider world with increasing success, and removed the likelihood of the conflict being widened, leading to the truce of July 1921. He was arrested again in March 1921, but was released following the truce. He was one of the TDs who were unsuccessful in persuading Éamon de Valera to join the negotiators of the Anglo-Irish Treaty that was signed on 6 December.

He supported the Treaty and became the first Minister for External Affairs of the Provisional Governments that in 1922 formed the Irish Free State. He represented the new state at the League of Nations and at Imperial Conferences. In 1927 FitzGerald became Minister for Defence. Following the defeat of the government in 1932 he remained as a TD until 1938. That year he was elected to Seanad Éireann, where he remained until retiring from politics in 1943.

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Errr Ummmm........... 18 Pounder Field Guns....nay cannon.

Howitzers.......

Look at the German 88's......they were fired as Cannon......

Then look at at the 25 pounder (roughly equivalent to an 88) field Howitzer ....

Twenty five pounders were fitted in tanks at a later stage in the war.....they were as good as an 88...They were then called Fireflies.....

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Garrett's oul' fellah...

Yeah, did a lot in his time but died far too young. Civ war Wounded.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Howitzers.......

Look at the German 88's......they were fired as Cannon......

Then look at at the 25 pounder (roughly equivalent to an 88) field Howitzer ....

Twenty five pounders were fitted in tanks at a later stage in the war.....they were as good as an 88...They were then called Fireflies.....

The gun in this phot is a 18Lb Field Gun yes ?. http://www.dublinforum.net/forum/sho...&postcount=440

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The gun in this phot is a 18Lb Field Gun yes ?. http://www.dublinforum.net/forum/sho...&postcount=440

The lack of platform and outriders says it is a Howitzer.....

Not designed to fire as a cannon at the hotel just up the street....

[cogito]

The lack of platform and outriders says it is a Howitzer.....

Not designed to fire as a cannon at the hotel just up the street....

18-pdr was designated as a field gun by the British Army in WW1 - not a howitzer.

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18-pdr was designated as a field gun by the British Army in WW1 - not a howitzer.

thanks cogs......is that an 18 pounder as I asked earlier.....?