The Squad...

[The Dublin Guard]

Can I take that as a no from you to Joe Dolan ?. Seems of late we are one step forward two steps back.

Would appreciate your second opinion on the following as a new starting point;

Quote; True... Lawson mentions that when he joined in March '21 the unit had a total strength of 21 - three companies of six men led by Tom Kehoe, Joe Leonard and Jimmy Slattery - with O'Daly in overall command.

Mick McDonnell
Tom Kehoe
Jimmy Slattery
Paddy O'Daley
Joe Leonard
Vinny Byrne
Sean Doyle
Paddy Griffin
Eddy Byrne
Mick Reilly
Jimmy Conroy
Ben Barret
Bill Stapleton
Charles Byrne
Pat McCrae
Charlie Dalton
Ben Byrne
Frank Bolster
Mick Keogh
Mick Kennedy
Sam Robinson
Johnny Dunne
Joe Byrne
Paddy Drury
Patrick Lawson
Tom Mckenna

I reckon Lawson is right, with O Daly as OC & McCrae as Driver maybe a spare driver or an IO attached ? also Wilson joined after Lawson, I can`t remember who Wilson replaced , as for no 15 I missed him ! as it was 6.45 when I posted that & I had been working all night !

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

& McCrae as Driver maybe a spare driver or an IO attached ?

Think you'll find there is evidence of McCrea being more than a driver, making him a full member of the Squad, would you agree ?.

To go back to part of the reason I say that;

http://dublinforum.net/forum/showpost.php?p=233680&postcount=124

Pat McCrae said;
Before I became a member of the squad I was asked. by Paddy Daly if I had any objection to shooting policemen. I answered that I was a Volunteer and that I would carry out any orders given to me. When the question of payment arose I stated that I was in business with my brothers, that I did not want to draw on the funds and that I could be called on at any time as I was my own master.*

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

as for no 15 I missed him ! as it was 6.45 when I posted that & I had been working all night !

Can you tell me who you believe should not be on this list and why pse ?.

Mick McDonnell
Tom Kehoe
Jimmy Slattery
Paddy O'Daley
Joe Leonard
Vinny Byrne
Sean Doyle
Paddy Griffin
Eddy Byrne
Mick Reilly
Jimmy Conroy
Ben Barret
Bill Stapleton
Charles Byrne
Pat McCrae
Charlie Dalton
Ben Byrne
Frank Bolster
Mick Keogh
Mick Kennedy
Sam Robinson
Johnny Dunne
Joe Byrne
Paddy Drury
Patrick Lawson
Tom Mckenna
John Caffrey

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Ok off the top of my head Custom House Squad men

1.Sean Doyle (died there )
3.Jim Slattery (Lost his hand in gun battle)

According to Slattery.....Doyle died while he was with him in the Mater Hospital.
Slattery's hand was treated in the Matter and saved.

[cogito]

Can I take that as a no from you to Joe Dolan ?. Seems of late we are one step forward two steps back...

Everything you say about Dolan is true... but we never him had as part of The Squad - and in his own words he never suggested he was part of that unit, he was a member of the Intelligence Section. Having said that, when on operations with Squad members he was an active part of the unit - more 'active' than some of the Squad themselves it would appear...

On the big picture I think we have a list that's 95% definitive - just needs a bit of tweaking at the edges - and that concerns those who were seconded in or out of the unit - out to Intelligence and in from the ASU. There may well be a case for some who had dual roles - Dalton been a prime example - maybe Dolan too. I reckon the only way to do that is try and tease them out one by one... mainly by going back to the records - and arriving at some form of consensus.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Dalton identifies GHQ Intelligence staff as follows;

Director of Intelligence ... Michael Collins
Deputy D.I. .................... Liam Tobin
Assistant D.I. ................. Tom Cullen

Staff...

Frank Thornton
Joe Dolan
Frank Saurin
Charlie Dalton
Charlie Byrne
Peter McGee
Dan McDonnell
Ned Kellegher
James Hughes
Con O'Neill
Bob O'Neill
Jack Walsh
Paddy Kennedy
Joe Guilfoyle
Paddy Caldwell

Don't think we're finished yet...

Jim Hughes - Hugo Mc Neil - Jim Brennan ?.

[cogito]

Jim Hughes - Hugo Mc Neil - Jim Brennan ?.

Are they IOs ? Is McNeill a son of Eoin's ?? One of his sons died on a mountain in Sligo escaping from Free State troops towards the end of the Civil War...

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Everything you say about Dolan is true... but we never him had as part of The Squad - and in his own words he never suggested he was part of that unit, he was a member of the Intelligence Section. Having said that, when on operations with Squad members he was an active part of the unit - more 'active' than some of the Squad themselves it would appear...On the big picture I think we have a list that's 95% definitive - just needs a bit of tweaking at the edges - and that concerns those who were seconded in or out of the unit - out to Intelligence and in from the ASU. There may well be a case for some who had dual roles - Dalton been a prime example - maybe Dolan too. I reckon the only way to do that is try and tease them out one by one... mainly by going back to the records - and arriving at some form of consensus.

Agree with most of that. Perhaps a 'positive' list, highlighting those there is NO doubt about....and a 2nd Associates list where all others can lodge, depending on the evidence turned up by anyone in here who can produce it.

Forgot to mention more credits on Dolan's behalf, as a 'shooter'.
The Collinstown Aerodrome job, 20 Mar 1919
The Alan Bell job 26 March 1920.
Rotunda (Rink) Dail Bonds job along with Mick Kennedy 15 July 1920.(a name to watch).
And of course Bloody Sunday with Dan McDonnell.

As i said before, he didn't push himself forward in his WS as a squad man, though he did as much and more than some of them who did.

It's very possible as Dolan was one of the very first IO's in the embryonic organisation along with Guilfoyle and Paddy Caldwell....that he was cross pollinated into the hit team as and when required, being by all accounts an old hand and very handy with a gun.

Question; How would the pension records show any more proof than the WS's, when it comes to Squad men....... Perhaps TDG might know.

[cogito]

Yeah its in a lecture I have given by Joe Leonard to I understand officer cadets in the 1940`s he says the Squad was never more then 20 I think or 21 I will check over the next few days.Also I read the whole Squad is said to have been at the Custom House (sorry can`t remember the source must have been said lecture or a withness statement), I have not tried to list them .But sure why not , the grey area is the men who where transfered into the Squad around March April & May 1921, Paddy Lawson & Johnny Wilson where two but who where the others I have a feeling Mick Kerrigan may have been another.The only way is pension records to really nail them down.

Ok off the top of my head Custom House Squad men

1.Sean Doyle (died there )
2.Tom Kegoh (Captured)
3.Paddy Lawson (Captured)
4.Frank Bolster (Captured)
5.Johnny Wilson (Captured)
6.Tom Mc Kenna (Captured)
7.Jeremiah Robinson ( Sam)(Captured)

...

I posted an image from James Doyle's witness statement relating to Squad members arrested during the Customs House debacle... he includes Laurence Finnegan but not Johnny Wilson. Details at #137 here...

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Are they IOs ? Is McNeill a son of Eoin's ?? One of his sons died on a mountain in Sligo escaping from Free State troops towards the end of the Civil War...

Yes they were IO's..
No...the McNeill who died in action was Brian...son of Eoin, and brother of Brigadier Gen Nial McNeil National Army.

[The Dublin Guard]

According to Slattery.....Doyle died while he was with him in the Mater Hospital.
Slattery's hand was treated in the Matter and saved.

I think your being a bit hard with on me lol ! Ok Sean Doyle died the next day as a result of injuries sustained at the Custom House ! His name is on the monument so he is classed as an IRA death in the battle !

As for McCrea I agree he was a full time member, the point I was making was to understand the 6 man units inside the Squad.

"Question; How would the pension records show any more proof than the WS's, when it comes to Squad men....... Perhaps TDG might know."

On Pension records & Army reference forms for demob grants, they listed there Units.On the ref forms filled in by others they mention the said unit that they served together in. I have seen said for Johnny Wilson so he should be added ! The dont always cal it the Squad, GHQ Special Guard or GHQ Special Squad are used.

I would not include Johnny Dunne on the list or John Caffery or Charlie Dalton, Its my opinion that Dalton was an IO & Dunne & Caffery where ASU. as I said before I have seen other listed that I dont believe where Squad in books & withness statements, most IRA men did not know who was an IO ASU or Squad & thats they way they wanted it !

[cogito]

I posted an image from James Doyle's witness statement relating to Squad members arrested during the Customs House debacle... he includes Laurence Finnegan but not Johnny Wilson. Details at #137 here...

He also mentions among those arrested....

Joseph Griffin.... HQ Intelligence Officer - so there was at least one of them present that day.

[The Dublin Guard]

I posted an image from James Doyle's witness statement relating to Squad members arrested during the Customs House debacle... he includes Laurence Finnegan but not Johnny Wilson. Details at #137 here...

I have seen that, he also includes Conroy, Conroy escaped ! so not 100 per cent I am affraid !

[The Dublin Guard]

He also mentions among those arrested....

Joseph Griffin.... HQ Intelligence Officer - so there was at least one of them present that day.

Again wrong its Paddy Griffen ( on prisoner list ) not Joe Griffen ! But Paddy Griffen was a Squad member according to Bill Stapletons WS so thats another Squad man there that day & captured !

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

I posted an image from James Doyle's witness statement relating to Squad members arrested during the Customs House debacle... he includes Laurence Finnegan but not Johnny Wilson. Details at #137 here...

I was never too convinced by that list Cogs. When we consider all the contradictions in the WS's , from some pretty clever fellas....yer mans list was prob his best shot.