Michael Collins

[Seeker]

Pearse had already won the War......the rest was just the ''mopping up''......

You're usually not one for overstatement ... But I think that's going a bit far!

Surely there was a deal still to do after 1916.

But maybe you mean ... psychologically. Or spiritually ... or on some level.

"The fools. The fools. The fools..."

[Seeker]

Wouldn't argue with any of that...

Well thanks for that! An unusual statement to be seen on this thread!

(Up Skib!)

[quinner]

You're usually not one for overstatement ... But I think that's going a bit far!

Surely there was a deal still to do after 1916.

But maybe you mean ... psychologically. Or spiritually ... or on some level.

"The fools. The fools. The fools..."

the war was for ''minds''......

[cogito]

Well thanks for that! An unusual statement to be seen on this thread!

(Up Skib!)

Shouldn't be...I thought it was a reasonably balanced view of Pearse's achievements in the context that you put it... I might disagree with some of the detail but as a broad summation I believe it would be churlish to begin to argue with it...

Pearse was a unique character. His politics were sound. He was a scholar, who contributed greatly to ideas on progressive education. He provided a republican, Irish-culture-centred education for a generation of future nationalists.

He had the artistic streak, to fire the imagination with poetic polemics. He performed a necessary function in the independence struggle. And he died for it. What more do we want of the man?

No doubt there are criticisms to make of his position. And that of everyone else who ever lived or fought for Ireland. His profile still looms large in the national imagination. There's something in that. He had the power to fire people's imagination and spirit. The struggle needed that. I say God bless his memory.

Collins was critical of the 1916 leaders' approach. But he had them to learn from. No one can claim that Pearse's efforts did not lead directly to the victories of 1919-1921

As some might put it:

Try.
Fail.
Try again.
Fail again.
Fail better.

[cosmo]

Shouldn't be...I thought it was a reasonably balanced view of Pearse's achievements in the context that you put it... I might disagree with some of the detail but as a broad summation I believe it would be churlish to begin to argue with it...

I think that's a very fair assestment of pearse, imo his only drawback was ,he didn`t have any military knowledge or be able to suddenly adapt to the situation , that goes for all the leaders as well, the only one to show any skill in keeping the british at bay was eamon ceannt in the Dublin union and of course the men in the house on mount st bridge but the success of this action was really the ineptitude of the british officers in pushing their men forward out in the open.

[Seeker]

I think that's a very fair assestment of pearse, imo his only drawback was ,he didn`t have any military knowledge or be able to suddenly adapt to the situation , that goes for all the leaders as well, the only one to show any skill in keeping the british at bay was eamon ceannt in the Dublin union and of course the men in the house on mount st bridge but the success of this action was really the ineptitude of the british officers in pushing their men forward out in the open.

Very true ... There were such widely different conditions at the different posts. But they achieved their goal. There was an international criteria that if you had an insurrection, and managed to hold out against government forces for so many days, that established an official claim to independence, under international rules (whatever kind they had in those days.) They did that. And they did it incredibly outnumbered & outgunned. The British soldiers were shocked, when the Irish surrendered (at that place on the quay..?) to see what a small number had been inflicting such heavy losses on them.

Getting back to Collins (being a Collins thread) as mentioned, he was respectfully but highly critical of the weaknesses of the 1916 Rising. But, without it, who knows if he would ever have fired a shot for Ireland? He'd taken a job with an American company, he was getting ready to join his brother in America, in case they brought in conscription.

It was the chance to "have a go" for Ireland that kept him here. The 1916 leaders gave him that.

If Collins was largely responsible for the victory of 1919-1921, & if without the 1916 leaders Collins would have left in 1915, never to return ... I guess Ireland has them to thank for independence.

[Seeker]

the war was for ''minds''......

"Let us raise a standard to which the wise and the honest can repair..."

(George Washington; whose barefoot, starvng troops were largely Irish)

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

Collins never seriously contemplated going to the states to avoid conscription in England, there is plenty of evidence to confirm that he was always intent on going back to Ireland. Certainly in a debate with Sean McGrath and others in 1915 about what they would do re conscription which they believed was heading their way....Collins is reported to have advised the group that Ireland 'was the only place to fight'.

It is regularly suggested that his American employers Guaranty Trust, offered him a placement in their New York office....by the same token GT were not in the business of assisting draft dodgers, and were well known to have encouraged enlistment, that said, their New York branch was teaming with expertise as good as and greater than Mr Collins could offer, so why would they bother moving an employee who was more valuable to them where he was, across the Atlantic in war time.

His brother Patrick's offer was most likely the more serious option. Patrick was a policeman in Chicago, and did invite Michael to join him and promised bed and board till he got on his feet, but long discussions with sister Hannie who he was sharing with in London, and the buzz of eminent rebellion in Dublin convinced him of where he should be and the rest is history.


Pic; Lady Hazel Lavery wife of `Sir John Lavery and friend of Michael Collins. It was Collins friendship with Hazel and her husband that sparked rumours of an affair between Mick and her. later Sir John would paint Collins on his death bed, and his wife would be the model for an Irish Colleen depicted for years on the back of Irish paper money.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

PS; To the best of all expert knowledge Michael Collins never fired a 'shot for Ireland' ....the only shots he is known for sure to have fired were those at Beal na mBlath.....fat lot of good that did him.

I believe Ireland has the IRB to thank for keeping MC in Ireland.

[tolka1]

I think that's a very fair assestment of pearse, imo his only drawback was ,he didn`t have any military knowledge or be able to suddenly adapt to the situation , that goes for all the leaders as well, the only one to show any skill in keeping the british at bay was eamon ceannt in the Dublin union and of course the men in the house on mount st bridge but the success of this action was really the ineptitude of the british officers in pushing their men forward out in the open.

They didn't have a prayer of winning and they knew it.I believe the idea was to wake the people up and maybe someone else could carry on?.
The Brits major mistake was executing the leaders because had they not done that it would have gone back to business as usual..............just my opinion.......As the fella said..."You don't bring a knife to a gunfight" and that is what the rising was...................But the seed was sown and still goes on ,hopefully without violence.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

They didn't have a prayer of winning and they knew it.I believe the idea was to wake the people up and maybe someone else could carry on?.

Agree there Tolk...Pearse's belief that Ireland's soul could be saved only by an act of Christ-like sacrifice was not made know to the rank and file, in fact it was kept from all except those such as Clarke, MacDermot, Plunkett, Kent and McDonagh who were members of the ultra secret Military Council of the IRB....all others had no idea of the reason or plan until the last minute. It was doomed to failure and Pearse knew it, but then again he wrote the script.
Pic; Pat and Will Pearse in the garden at St Enda's.

[cosmo]

I don`t agree there lads. I think they had high asperations of a bargaining spot at the table afterwards, if everything had fallen into place i.e mcneill had stayed [or was kept]on board and the german guns to be landed they would have been in a stronger position that to me was their hopes, but imo they would not have succeded against the british anyway, I don`t think it was just for sacrafiece sake. pearse and his comrades never were in any conflict and pearse was shattered at the amount of civilian death and destruction ,basically at what they had caused. maybe they did expect to die as this was par for the course in any of the mutinies in the empire till then. ps, most or all of the leaders were all very well educated , pearse being a barrister would have had a chess board brain ,unfortunately he or the others knew nothing about military logistics .

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

I don`t agree there lads. I think they had high asperations of a bargaining spot at the table afterwards, if everything had fallen into place i.e mcneill had stayed [or was kept]on board and the german guns to be landed they would have been in a stronger position that to me was their hopes, but imo they would not have succeded against the british anyway, I don`t think it was just for sacrafiece sake. pearse and his comrades never were in any conflict and pearse was shattered at the amount of civilian death and destruction ,basically at what they had caused. maybe they did expect to die as this was par for the course in any of the mutinies in the empire till then. ps, most or all of the leaders were all very well educated , pearse being a barrister would have had a chess board brain ,unfortunately he or the others knew nothing about military logistics .

Anyone who locks himself and others up in a building with no more than one 1000 amateur 'soldiers' round about in support doing the same, with little more than pikes against a minimum of 20'000 trained troopers with big guns....is a dreamer.....and yes for Pearse....he admitted it was his Christ like sacrifice.....and few knew about that....except some other poets and dreamers. Madness, utter madness.....and the Brit reaction ?....Starvation would have done a better job.

[tolka1]

Anyone who locks himself and others up in a building with no more than one 1000 ametuer 'soldiers' round about in support doing the same, with little more than pikes against a minimum of 20'000 trained troopers with big guns....is a dreamer.....and yes for Pearse....he admitted it was his Christ like sacrifice.....and few knew about that....except some other poets and dreamers. Madness, utter madness.....and the Brit reaction ?....Starvation would have done a better job.

absolutely right dtw,
I actually believe they did great job holding out for as long as they did and probably longer than expected but they did not have a snowballs chance in hell.Mount street bridge was a great feat for those poorly trained and equipped lads but the british army was far and away superior even if everything had gone right and everyone rose up.
They did however learn valuable lessons and I would point to mt street bridge where they held off a far superior force for a while............Guerilla warfare.

[quinner]

the Point about Pearse has been missed......

He would have been aware of the recent ''Opening up'' of Oklahoma and the previous settling of the Americas.....
He would have been well aware of the ''Scramble for Africa'' taking place.....
He probably would have sided with the Boers in the recent wars......

He was no ''freedom fighter''..........He wanted an Ireland , that was purely in his own image.....Free from all outside influence and one that, except in the minds of a few people ...Never had existed....